After reading the recent SI article on Barry Bonds my first thought was Bonds must be the single most hated man in baseball, at least by the press. But, they make a good case for much of what they write IMO. Here's the response from Bonds' lawyer -

http://barrybonds.mlb.com/players/bo...ent_030706.pdf

Looks like he's gonna just try & ignore it & hope it all blows over.

Assuming it doesn't...what should become of Bonds' records? Mcgwire's for that matter, it's clear he was a juicer as well.

Does any of this mean Bonds shouldn't get to the hall of fame?

Or is this another case of the press getting payback on an athlete who just refuses to cooperate with them?

The interesting part is that Gary Sheffield of the Yankees was implicated in the Balco probe too, and he kinda used the same defense as Bonds....you know...the "Golly Gee, I didn't know what that stuff was that I shot in my butt" defense. And Jason Giambi has already admitted to doing <b>something</b> too; he just won't say what that "something" really was. If you're gonna do anything to Bonds, you gotta do the same thing to these two guys too. And that should apply to Mcgwire and Sosa too.

The guy that investigated Rose - Dowd- is still available, I think. Sounds like a job for him.

Bud Light had gotta do something though.

If you read the statement carefully, you'll find one little thing missing - the statement, "I didn't do it!" You do see statements saying he hasn't read the article or book, and that some of the witnesses aren't credible (not that they're wrong, just not credible). Iow, a typical, lawyerly statement saying nothing.

I guess the problem I have with Bonds and McGwire is they have done nothing wrong according to the rules of baseball. Even if the SI story about Bonds is true, it wasn't against baseball's rules at that time. And they haven't shown he juiced after 2002 when baseball enacted the rules. But, it still "feels" like cheating.

Should it keep them out of the Hall of Fame? I don't know. If someone can explain to me how Shoeless Joe Jackson, who didn't really do anything wrong, is not in the HOF, but Gaylord Perry, who admits (and brags) about cheating is in?

Hall of Fame voting - sport or not a sport? (Oops, wrong thread.)

I haven't read the SI article, I just heard about it on the Tony Koinhauser show. I think by now just about everybody accepts that Bonds was juicing for some period of time after 1998. The only people who don't accept this are people who don't want to believe it's true, for the most part.

What to do about it? I don't know. You can't erase his records, I don't think. MLB has never done that, even for players who threw a World Series. Can you put an asterisk next to all his records? I guess, but what good does that do, really? Make a new category, career HR (prior to 1992)?

Ban him from the Hall? I honestly don't care. I don't anyone will care if he doesn't get in. Nobody likes him, nobody's going to come to his defense, the only sportswriters who will try to make a case for him will be the ones from San Francisco.

I think everybody will refer to 1992-2005 as "The Steroid Era", just like pre-1920 was "the dead ball era", and people will discount the records as being steroid-aided. Yes, they hit a ton of HRs. Yea. But they did it with a needle.

But it wasn't illegal while they were doing it. If it was not illegal, it must have been ok for them to use the juice. It was MLB that was looking for more ways to put fanny's in the seats anyway. Now they want to throw the players under the bus.

I am not in favor of prohibiting Bonds from entering the Hall. Atletes have been using Performance Enhancing Drugs for a long time. Going back to amphetimines in the NBA in the 60's and cortisone in all sports.

From what I've learned, Anabolic Steroids are terrifically bad for your body. Lyle Alzado, Derick Sanderson and Billy Graham all told their horror stories. It's been a pandemic for Professional Wrestlers:

• Curt Hennig, 44, died of acute cocaine intoxication in February 2003, medical records show. But his father said last year that a lethal combination of steroids and painkillers contributed to his death.

•"The British Bulldog," Davey Boy Smith, 39,died in 2002 in Canada of an enlarged heart with evidence of microscopic scar tissue, possibly from steroid abuse, a coroner said. "Davey paid the price with steroid cocktails and human-growth hormones," says Bruce Hart, a veteran trainer who worked with Smith and was his brother-in-law.

•Louie "Spicolli" Mucciolo, 27, died from coronary disease in his San Pedro, Calif., home in 1998, according to his autopsy. Investigators found an empty vial of the male hormone testosterone, pain pills and an anxiety-reducing drug. The Los Angeles County coroner's office determined the drugs might have contributed to his heart condition.

•Richard "Ravishing Rick Rude" Rood, 40, died from an overdose of "mixed medications" in Alpharetta, Ga., in 1999, his autopsy shows. In 1994 he testified that he had used anabolic steroids to build muscle mass and relieve joint pain.

•"Flyin' "Brian Pillman, 35, was taking painkillers and human-growth hormones when he died from heart disease in 1997, his widow said several years ago. Investigators found empty bottles of painkillers near his body in a Minnesota hotel room.

Bonds, McQuire and others failed miserably to serve as examples for younger athletes. I blame them far more than guys like Mike Webster & Lyle Alzado that didn't know the dangers as well. That is their moral dilema and legacy. They should be ashamed.

They may have broken Drug Laws. I'm all for legal prosecution.

If they are proven to have broken Rules of their sport. I'm all for punishment including being banned from playing. I'm for a more strict testing policy.

However, after the ball goes over the fence, it's a Home Run and too many athletes in too many sports have used illegal drugs and gotten away with it to make an example of one single guy for the Hall of Fame. He was a great, great player - it's sad he went this route.

Say what? I believe that using steroids was illegal all during that time frame under federal <b>laws</b>. MLB just didn't have any specific rule laid out at that time as to whether there was any punishment to be handed down to any player caught breaking that particular law.

Yep, this was in my mind as well as I read the article.

Amphetimines were huge in all pro sports in the 60's & 70's. And that top 5 game 7 moment in NBA history - Willis Reed hobbling out on the court against the Lakers - was brought to you by massive cortisone injections.

BTW, don't forget that while it might not have been banned by baseball steroid use without a prescription is illegal by law.

Here is something else to think about. If you consider the use of steriods to be cheating, why should that keep Bonds out of the Hall of Fame? Baseball has been putting cheaters in the Hall for decades.

Every player who has ever corked a bat is a cheater. Every pitcher that put a foreign substance or defaced a baseball is a cheater. Yet many of them have been put into the Hall of Fame.

I personally couldn't care less about the majority of professional baseball. Only player I follow is my cousin...he is in his first major league camp with the Phillies. If it wasn't for him...I would completely ignore baseball.

I think MLB has dug their own grave. When the beauty of a 2-1 game wasn't good enough for ratings and they started to allow subtle "changes," they pretty much eliminated any possiblilty of an asterisk in their record books unless it is to point out their own greed and willful neglect. I think they would have gladly tolerated steroids for as long as no one brought it up and caused a commotion.

I also think that Bonds does more than refuse to cooperate, he is an active jerk. I don't buy his recent attempts to yuck it up in drag. My family members who grew up and went to school with him painted a picture of a self-centered, entitled brat long before he ever got to the majors. My two meetings with him when we were both teens confirmed this. This is not really here nor there in terms of his guilt, but I don't really buy his victim-of-the-press schtick.

JMO

Hmmmmm......Jurassic said the same thing about his two meetings with Honus Wagner.

(I met Artis Gilmore when I was in HS and he was at Gardner-Webb. Nice guy. He was shaved then - no Afro. I don't think Artis ever needed 'roids.)

Amphetimines were huge in all pro sports in the 60's & 70's. And that top 5 game 7 moment in NBA history - Willis Reed hobbling out on the court against the Lakers - was brought to you by massive cortisone injections.

[/B][/QUOTE]As was Kirk Gibson hitting a homer and then running the bases on one leg in the '88 world series.....

Those cortisone injections are an example of somebody legally using a type of steroid under a doctor's care. I woulld imagine that would apply to more than a few officials on this forum too. They're about as far from what Bonds and the other juicers were doing as you can get. Apples and watermelons.

Amphetamines are still huge is all pro sports today. MLB is gonna have one helluva time getting rid of greenies.

As was Kirk Gibson hitting a homer and then running the bases on one leg in the '88 world series.....

Those cortisone injections are an example of somebody legally using a type of steroid under a doctor's care. I woulld imagine that would apply to more than a few officials on this forum too. They're about as far from what Bonds and the other juicers were doing as you can get. Apples and watermelons. [/quote][/b]

Why?

A performance enhancing drug enhances performance whether you get it from an MD or a gym rat with connections.

As far as baseball's greed goes: what's wrong with greed? It's their investment, why shouldn't they maximize their return? Which leads me to another point: the 1 thing you CANNOT fault MLB for is "willful neglect". They have had a precise strategy since the 70's to grow worldwide revenue. The WBC this week springs directly from that strategy.

As do all the new, beautiful stadiums we see...and the new franchises...with lowered mounds & squeezed strike zones...and juiced baseballs...and the dilution of talent...and pricing a typical family of 4 out of attending in person...and MLB's turning a blind eye to the steroid mess until congress threatened to fix it for them...and of course all the tainted records.

Yep, it's all going according to plan.

The only Performance Enhancing Drug I have ever used was recently cited in causing blindness in a tiny number of middle-age men. Given that Coaches have accused me of that condition for years, I see no reason to discontinue use. My wife has indicated that she is putting askerisks next to all my post 2002 Accomplishments.

They are allowed their greed and I am allowed to turn my back on the game (which I pretty much have after living and dying with it through the 70's and 80's.)

I meant willful neglect in terms of their caretaking of the beauty and integrity of the game itself, not of revenues or franchise financial health.

My opinions are really just the grumblings of a bitter ex-fan and don't really mean anything. whatever this crap is they are selling now is making a whole lot more money than the game of baseball I used to love. But the day Bonds' name goes above Aaron's in the record book is the day they may as well take a big piss on the record book, IMO.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: Originally posted by Dan_ref Those cortisone injections are an example of somebody legally using a type of steroid under a doctor's care. I woulld imagine that would apply to more than a few officials on this forum too. They're about as far from what Bonds and the other juicers were doing as you can get. Apples and watermelons.

Why?

A performance enhancing drug enhances performance whether you get it from an MD or a gym rat with connections.

[/B][/QUOTE]Why? Because a steroid being used for a specific purpose under a doctor's direction is completely different than somebody ingesting horse steroids to add muscle or bulk. Most steroids are prescribed to aid healing or alleviate certain problems- ex: joint trauma or asthma. They are not performance enhancers <i>per se</i>, unless you count walking and breathing as "performance". What Bonds and the other juicers are using has got nuthin' to do with that. I've had all kinds of steroid injections over the years- both knees, back- and ingested different steroids also-ex. prednisone(which is about the strongest one around). I didn't turn into Mr. PotatoHead like Bonds did.

Good explanation here:
http://www.globalchange.com/steroids.htm

Of course, I also do agree with you that MLB was jumping up and down when McGwire and Sosa were having their homerun battle. They coulda cared less that steroids were involved. It certainly did take Canseco and the U.S. government to pull their head outa their butts. They're hardly unique there though. What professional sport anymore really cares about anything except maximizing their investment?

As someone who appreciated and enjoyed being around Mr. PotatoHead, I resent the comparison. :)

Business does have only one main obligation to their stockholders and that's to make money. But with sports it seems like someone has to keep a level head and make sure it doesn't get pushed too far or it might start to backfire. Has baseball expansion been an example of this? Maybe that's just wishful, old-fashioned thinking.

Why? Because blah blah blah blah too many words... [/b][/quote]

Let's try again. What do Kirk Gibson & Willis Reed have in common? They are men, who when you wouldn't trust them to carry an egg from the refrig to the frying pan, pulled out one single miracle performance only because they were both shot full of drugs. IOW their performance was enhanced by drugs. Good to see you've come to your senses.

You're late to the party.

Some of us pissed on the record book back when Mcgwire & Sosa broke 61.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:34 PM]

Sounds like some party. :D

Kinda like the Boston tea party...except but we drank the tea & pee'ed over the side of the ship.

1) What do Kirk Gibson & Willis Reed have in common? They are men, who when you wouldn't trust them to carry an egg from the refrig to the frying pan, pulled out one single miracle performance only because they were both shot full of drugs.

2) Good to see you've come back to your senses.

3) Some of us pissed on the record book back when Mcgwire & Sosa broke 61. [/B][/QUOTE]1)Yup, they were both shot full of <b>legal</b> drugs, not <b>illegal</b> drugs. And no, the result isn't the same imo. Someone taking a painkilling shot to enable them to play in a game is <b>not</b> the same as is if that same player took anabolic steroids to put on 40 pounds of muscle.

2) I never left my senses. I always remain calm, cool and collected even under the most difficult of circumstances.

3) Me too.

1)Yup, they were both shot full of <b>legal</b> drugs, not <b>illegal</b> drugs. And no, the result isn't the same imo. Someone taking a painkilling shot to enable them to play in a game is <b>not</b> the same as is if that same player took anabolic steroids to put on 40 pounds of muscle.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't buy it.

Painkillers enhance performance. Period. And when compared to steroids their effects are much, much quicker. (Thankfully for some of us :rolleyes: )

The only difference is that *usually* the painkillers are prescribed by a MD.

What would you say if it was revealed that Gibson had someone illegally inject cortisone & whatever-caine into his knees before his famous at bat, instead of an MD doing it legally?

And you STILL managed to hit the record book? My respect for you is growing.

It's a big book. :shrug:

Painkillers enhance performance. Period. And when compared to steroids their effects are much, much quicker. (Thankfully for some of us :rolleyes: )

The only difference is that *usually* the painkillers are prescribed by a MD.

What would you say if it was revealed that Gibson had someone illegally inject cortisone & whatever-caine into his knees before his famous at bat, instead of an MD doing it legally? [/B][/QUOTE]Yup, painkillers sureashell do enhance performance. Corticosteroids do also. So does Viagra(so I've heard... I don't need it personally...nope,not me....nosir....no way). The difference? Painkillers and corticosteroids are legal if used as prescribed. The type of steroids that Bonds <i>et al</i> did aren't legal, and aren't prescribed.

Now, you can also also make a case along the same line for other substances too. Tobacco is legal. Marijuana isn't legal. What one is considered worse from a health standpoint?

The difference is that the stuff you're getting in your creaky knees, Dan, is legal and is meant specifically for the problems you have. That's completely different than taking a drug when you <b>don't</b> have a physical problem that needs treating, and that drug is illegal to boot.

Soooo...Barry Bonds doesn't have the right to consider the aging process a physical problem worth treating? Yet Kirk Gibson has the right to consider the pain in his beaten up knees a physical problem worth treating? They both only want to extend their career, after all.

(Leaving aside the legal issue of course. And the bad side effects of steroid use.)

Well, if you wanna leave the legal and moral issues aside, I guess you can say that Bonds has got the right to get a Uzi and take care of all the sportswriters that are bothering him too.

Does that fit in with your argument?

Uzi?

Why an uzi?

What's wrong with a good old made in the USA M16? He can even get a grenade launcher for the days when he's feeling too shaky to shoot straight. Can't do that with a damn Uzi.

Why buy an import? Why do you hate America?

btw...watching the 'Nova/Rutgers game on espn2? Not a bad game.

I believe the steroids were illegal drugs even if MLB didn't prohibit them expressly. Sort of like the Todd Bertuzzi attack on Steve Moore. If it happened on the street, 'ol #44 would've done time. McGwire/Sosa got me interested in baseball that summer, but neither one would get my vote if I had one. All you need to look at are before and after photos--skinny banjo hitter Sammy Sosa of the Texas Rangers vs vein popping muscleman Sammy Sosa of the Chicago Cubs; Skinny Pittsburgh Pirate Barry Bonds vs old helmet is now too small Barry Bonds of the SF Giants; Beanpole Mark McGwire of the Oakland A's vs Telephone pole Mark Mcgwire of the St Louis Cardinals. And maybe the reason is now clear as to why Rafael Palmeiro became a spokesman for Viagra.

I believe that a lot of voters will focus on the Jim Rice type of guy in the next few years at the expense of the record breaker HR hitters once they become eligible. They may still get in, but they are not locks for 1st year entry anymore.

1) What do Kirk Gibson & Willis Reed have in common? They are men, who when you wouldn't trust them to carry an egg from the refrig to the frying pan, pulled out one single miracle performance only because they were both shot full of drugs.


A little difference considering Willis hardly even played in that game 7 and Gibson came in as a PH when you compare to a long drawn out period of sustained use.

cheating is cheating
 

If they are gonna keep Pete Rose out, why is there no debate about barry bonds or others who have cheated. I think that they should not be allowed in the hall and I don't think their records should allowed to stand as they cheated to achieve them!!

Bonds, McGuire, Sosa = CHEATERS

NO Records, NO Hall of Fame!

If they get in, might as well trash any credibility it has. Rose can't get in for what he did AFTER he played and they better not let these cheaters in for what they did WHEN they played.

I don't watch much pro sports because of all the garbage.

Anyone who pays to watch drug-crazed, egotistical, illiterates play sports is wasting their time and money.

How did the illiterates get in here? I don't think we should start bashing sports announcers in this thread.

Good column here.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/co...p-337687c.html

Might be Bonds' biggest worry might be perjury.

Bud Selig knows there is still cash to be had from this circus but, I think, how the circus leaves town will go a long way toward determining what comes after. If MLB lets their lack of action or internal investigation become too big of a joke, they could stand to lose a lot more cash in the fall out. But what do I know? I thought it passed the point of being too big of a joke several years ago.