Influence of drugs in sports - Barry Bonds

[Dan_ref]

After reading the recent SI article on Barry Bonds my first thought was Bonds must be the single most hated man in baseball, at least by the press. But, they make a good case for much of what they write IMO. Here's the response from Bonds' lawyer -

http://barrybonds.mlb.com/players/bo...ent_030706.pdf

Looks like he's gonna just try & ignore it & hope it all blows over.

Assuming it doesn't...what should become of Bonds' records? Mcgwire's for that matter, it's clear he was a juicer as well.

Does any of this mean Bonds shouldn't get to the hall of fame?

Or is this another case of the press getting payback on an athlete who just refuses to cooperate with them?

[Jurassic Referee]

The interesting part is that Gary Sheffield of the Yankees was implicated in the Balco probe too, and he kinda used the same defense as Bonds....you know...the "Golly Gee, I didn't know what that stuff was that I shot in my butt" defense. And Jason Giambi has already admitted to doing something too; he just won't say what that "something" really was. If you're gonna do anything to Bonds, you gotta do the same thing to these two guys too. And that should apply to Mcgwire and Sosa too.

The guy that investigated Rose - Dowd- is still available, I think. Sounds like a job for him.

Bud Light had gotta do something though.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
After reading the recent SI article on Barry Bonds my first thought was Bonds must be the single most hated man in baseball, at least by the press. But, they make a good case for much of what they write IMO. Here's the response from Bonds' lawyer -

http://barrybonds.mlb.com/players/bo...ent_030706.pdf

Looks like he's gonna just try & ignore it & hope it all blows over.

Assuming it doesn't...what should become of Bonds' records? Mcgwire's for that matter, it's clear he was a juicer as well.

Does any of this mean Bonds shouldn't get to the hall of fame?

Or is this another case of the press getting payback on an athlete who just refuses to cooperate with them?

If you read the statement carefully, you'll find one little thing missing - the statement, "I didn't do it!" You do see statements saying he hasn't read the article or book, and that some of the witnesses aren't credible (not that they're wrong, just not credible). Iow, a typical, lawyerly statement saying nothing.

I guess the problem I have with Bonds and McGwire is they have done nothing wrong according to the rules of baseball. Even if the SI story about Bonds is true, it wasn't against baseball's rules at that time. And they haven't shown he juiced after 2002 when baseball enacted the rules. But, it still "feels" like cheating.

Should it keep them out of the Hall of Fame? I don't know. If someone can explain to me how Shoeless Joe Jackson, who didn't really do anything wrong, is not in the HOF, but Gaylord Perry, who admits (and brags) about cheating is in?

Hall of Fame voting - sport or not a sport? (Oops, wrong thread.)

[ChuckElias]

I haven't read the SI article, I just heard about it on the Tony Koinhauser show. I think by now just about everybody accepts that Bonds was juicing for some period of time after 1998. The only people who don't accept this are people who don't want to believe it's true, for the most part.

What to do about it? I don't know. You can't erase his records, I don't think. MLB has never done that, even for players who threw a World Series. Can you put an asterisk next to all his records? I guess, but what good does that do, really? Make a new category, career HR (prior to 1992)?

Ban him from the Hall? I honestly don't care. I don't anyone will care if he doesn't get in. Nobody likes him, nobody's going to come to his defense, the only sportswriters who will try to make a case for him will be the ones from San Francisco.

I think everybody will refer to 1992-2005 as "The Steroid Era", just like pre-1920 was "the dead ball era", and people will discount the records as being steroid-aided. Yes, they hit a ton of HRs. Yea. But they did it with a needle.

[lucky1313]

But it wasn't illegal while they were doing it. If it was not illegal, it must have been ok for them to use the juice. It was MLB that was looking for more ways to put fanny's in the seats anyway. Now they want to throw the players under the bus.

[JCrow]

I am not in favor of prohibiting Bonds from entering the Hall. Atletes have been using Performance Enhancing Drugs for a long time. Going back to amphetimines in the NBA in the 60's and cortisone in all sports.

From what I've learned, Anabolic Steroids are terrifically bad for your body. Lyle Alzado, Derick Sanderson and Billy Graham all told their horror stories. It's been a pandemic for Professional Wrestlers:

• Curt Hennig, 44, died of acute cocaine intoxication in February 2003, medical records show. But his father said last year that a lethal combination of steroids and painkillers contributed to his death.

•"The British Bulldog," Davey Boy Smith, 39,died in 2002 in Canada of an enlarged heart with evidence of microscopic scar tissue, possibly from steroid abuse, a coroner said. "Davey paid the price with steroid cocktails and human-growth hormones," says Bruce Hart, a veteran trainer who worked with Smith and was his brother-in-law.

•Louie "Spicolli" Mucciolo, 27, died from coronary disease in his San Pedro, Calif., home in 1998, according to his autopsy. Investigators found an empty vial of the male hormone testosterone, pain pills and an anxiety-reducing drug. The Los Angeles County coroner's office determined the drugs might have contributed to his heart condition.

•Richard "Ravishing Rick Rude" Rood, 40, died from an overdose of "mixed medications" in Alpharetta, Ga., in 1999, his autopsy shows. In 1994 he testified that he had used anabolic steroids to build muscle mass and relieve joint pain.

•"Flyin' "Brian Pillman, 35, was taking painkillers and human-growth hormones when he died from heart disease in 1997, his widow said several years ago. Investigators found empty bottles of painkillers near his body in a Minnesota hotel room.

Bonds, McQuire and others failed miserably to serve as examples for younger athletes. I blame them far more than guys like Mike Webster & Lyle Alzado that didn't know the dangers as well. That is their moral dilema and legacy. They should be ashamed.

They may have broken Drug Laws. I'm all for legal prosecution.

If they are proven to have broken Rules of their sport. I'm all for punishment including being banned from playing. I'm for a more strict testing policy.

However, after the ball goes over the fence, it's a Home Run and too many athletes in too many sports have used illegal drugs and gotten away with it to make an example of one single guy for the Hall of Fame. He was a great, great player - it's sad he went this route.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lucky1313
But it wasn't illegal while they were doing it. If it was not illegal, it must have been ok for them to use the juice. It was MLB that was looking for more ways to put fanny's in the seats anyway. Now they want to throw the players under the bus.

Say what? I believe that using steroids was illegal all during that time frame under federal laws. MLB just didn't have any specific rule laid out at that time as to whether there was any punishment to be handed down to any player caught breaking that particular law.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JCrow
I am not in favor of prohibiting Bonds from entering the Hall. Atletes have been using Performance Enhancing Drugs for a long time. Going back to amphetimines in the NBA in the 60's and cortisone in all sports.

Yep, this was in my mind as well as I read the article.

Amphetimines were huge in all pro sports in the 60's & 70's. And that top 5 game 7 moment in NBA history - Willis Reed hobbling out on the court against the Lakers - was brought to you by massive cortisone injections.

BTW, don't forget that while it might not have been banned by baseball steroid use without a prescription is illegal by law.

[LarryS]

Here is something else to think about. If you consider the use of steriods to be cheating, why should that keep Bonds out of the Hall of Fame? Baseball has been putting cheaters in the Hall for decades.

Every player who has ever corked a bat is a cheater. Every pitcher that put a foreign substance or defaced a baseball is a cheater. Yet many of them have been put into the Hall of Fame.

I personally couldn't care less about the majority of professional baseball. Only player I follow is my cousin...he is in his first major league camp with the Phillies. If it wasn't for him...I would completely ignore baseball.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Assuming it doesn't...what should become of Bonds' records? Mcgwire's for that matter, it's clear he was a juicer as well.

Does any of this mean Bonds shouldn't get to the hall of fame?

Or is this another case of the press getting payback on an athlete who just refuses to cooperate with them?

I think MLB has dug their own grave. When the beauty of a 2-1 game wasn't good enough for ratings and they started to allow subtle "changes," they pretty much eliminated any possiblilty of an asterisk in their record books unless it is to point out their own greed and willful neglect. I think they would have gladly tolerated steroids for as long as no one brought it up and caused a commotion.

I also think that Bonds does more than refuse to cooperate, he is an active jerk. I don't buy his recent attempts to yuck it up in drag. My family members who grew up and went to school with him painted a picture of a self-centered, entitled brat long before he ever got to the majors. My two meetings with him when we were both teens confirmed this. This is not really here nor there in terms of his guilt, but I don't really buy his victim-of-the-press schtick.

JMO

[JCrow]

Hmmmmm......Jurassic said the same thing about his two meetings with Honus Wagner.

(I met Artis Gilmore when I was in HS and he was at Gardner-Webb. Nice guy. He was shaved then - no Afro. I don't think Artis ever needed 'roids.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

Amphetimines were huge in all pro sports in the 60's & 70's. And that top 5 game 7 moment in NBA history - Willis Reed hobbling out on the court against the Lakers - was brought to you by massive cortisone injections.

[/B][/QUOTE]As was Kirk Gibson hitting a homer and then running the bases on one leg in the '88 world series.....

Those cortisone injections are an example of somebody legally using a type of steroid under a doctor's care. I woulld imagine that would apply to more than a few officials on this forum too. They're about as far from what Bonds and the other juicers were doing as you can get. Apples and watermelons.

Amphetamines are still huge is all pro sports today. MLB is gonna have one helluva time getting rid of greenies.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Amphetimines were huge in all pro sports in the 60's & 70's. And that top 5 game 7 moment in NBA history - Willis Reed hobbling out on the court against the Lakers - was brought to you by massive cortisone injections.

[/B]

As was Kirk Gibson hitting a homer and then running the bases on one leg in the '88 world series.....

Those cortisone injections are an example of somebody legally using a type of steroid under a doctor's care. I woulld imagine that would apply to more than a few officials on this forum too. They're about as far from what Bonds and the other juicers were doing as you can get. Apples and watermelons. [/quote][/b]

Why?

A performance enhancing drug enhances performance whether you get it from an MD or a gym rat with connections.

As far as baseball's greed goes: what's wrong with greed? It's their investment, why shouldn't they maximize their return? Which leads me to another point: the 1 thing you CANNOT fault MLB for is "willful neglect". They have had a precise strategy since the 70's to grow worldwide revenue. The WBC this week springs directly from that strategy.

As do all the new, beautiful stadiums we see...and the new franchises...with lowered mounds & squeezed strike zones...and juiced baseballs...and the dilution of talent...and pricing a typical family of 4 out of attending in person...and MLB's turning a blind eye to the steroid mess until congress threatened to fix it for them...and of course all the tainted records.

Yep, it's all going according to plan.

[JCrow]

The only Performance Enhancing Drug I have ever used was recently cited in causing blindness in a tiny number of middle-age men. Given that Coaches have accused me of that condition for years, I see no reason to discontinue use. My wife has indicated that she is putting askerisks next to all my post 2002 Accomplishments.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

As far as baseball's greed goes: what's wrong with greed? It's their investment, why shouldn't they maximize their return? Which leads me to another point: the 1 thing you CANNOT fault MLB for is "willful neglect". They have had a precise strategy since the 70's to grow worldwide revenue. The WBC this week springs directly from that strategy.

They are allowed their greed and I am allowed to turn my back on the game (which I pretty much have after living and dying with it through the 70's and 80's.)

I meant willful neglect in terms of their caretaking of the beauty and integrity of the game itself, not of revenues or franchise financial health.

My opinions are really just the grumblings of a bitter ex-fan and don't really mean anything. whatever this crap is they are selling now is making a whole lot more money than the game of baseball I used to love. But the day Bonds' name goes above Aaron's in the record book is the day they may as well take a big piss on the record book, IMO.