What is the LEAST called rule of all? My vote is for the simultaneous foul. Anyone else?

Multiple foul.

Definitely the multiple foul. As in never.

Followed closely by the flop T.

Z

False Double Foul
Actually saw it called in a sectional playoff game last week. Unfortunately the ref did not know what they had called and botched it pretty bad. Also forutnately most of the crowd did not know waht they had called either.

I called that one last weekend. Even Padgett said I shouldn't have. Now that's bad. I guess I was just having One of Those Days.

Definitely NOT the least called foul. Perhaps the foul that doesn't get properly named very often.

I expect the least called infraction is hitting the ball with a fist. I've never heard of anyone ever calling it, never heard it brought up in meetings, never heard the rule even mentioned anywhere.

Ooh, good one. I had this last weekend, A1 dribbling unchallenged in his backcourt pops the ball with his fist one time. I saw it, didn't think about calling it, but thought about telling him why he may want to keep that out of his portfolio in the future.
Did I mention it? Nope, I forgot about it until just now.

The least enforced rules are the ones dealing with the style of the uniforms. The coloring, lettering, number size, location, etc.
There certainly are violations of this, but no one ever calls it.

Have had it twice in my career. Admin'd correctly both times. :)

Followed by the three second rule. I have not called it in forty years and I started officiating in 1971.

MTD, Sr.

One of the rules that is most overlooked that I see is in girls basketball. They stand at the lane line with their heels up in the air over the blocks. I don't know why girls do this. You never see it in boys. I brought it up at a rules meeting one year and was told it probably wasn't addressed because they weren't gaining an advantage??

These are not nearly as uncommon as you think. Here are a couple fairly common scenarios:

A1 drives to the basket and is fouled by B1. A1 completes the try, which is successful. A1 turns and makes an unsportsmanlike comment to B1. False Double.

A1 and B1 are in the post. B1 fouls A1, who is trying to get position. After the official's whistle, A1 retaliates by intentionally pushing B1. False double.

My vote is for the multiple foul. I've never called it, never seen it called, never even heard of it being called.

I've always wondered about this also, as in, "why do girls stand like this on free throws?". Never really considered calling a violation, I usually just stand there wondering who started this trend.

False Double Fouls are a frequent occurrence. Example: A1 gets fouled by B1 on a nice "and 1" play, then A1 gets T'd up for taunting B1 afterwards, or for shoving B1 or for popping his shirt. That's a false double foul.

Uhhh....

1971
+ 40
-----
2011

We're good for another 5 years or so.

Any foul committed by the offfense during free-throws up to the time that the throw-in after a made FT is touched on the floor or a rebound on a missed FT is touched is gonna be part of a false double foul. That includes offensive personal and technical fouls. That's the most common false double foul; happens all the time.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 9th, 2006 at 10:25 AM]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee My vote is for the multiple foul. I've never called it, never seen it called, never even heard of it being called.

Any foul committed by the defense during free-throws up to the time that the throw-in after a made FT is touched on the floor or a rebound on a missed FT is touched is gonna be part of a false double foul. That includes defensive personal and technical fouls. That's the most common false double foul; happens all the time. [/QUOTE]

JR, the scenario you just described is a False Multiple Foul, which as you say is very common.

NCAA Rule 4 Art. 14. False multiple foul. A false multiple foul occurs when there are
two or more fouls by the same team such that the last foul is committed
before the game clock is started after it is stopped for the first, and such that
at least one of the attributes of a multiple foul is absent.

JR, the scenario you just described is a False Multiple Foul, which as you say is very common.

NCAA Rule 4 Art. 14. False multiple foul. A false multiple foul occurs when there are
two or more fouls by the same team such that the last foul is committed
before the game clock is started after it is stopped for the first, and such that
at least one of the attributes of a multiple foul is absent. [/QUOTE]Yup, shoulda put down "offensive" team. Just went back and changed it.

OK, I'll go along with the flop-as-a-T call, as being fairly rare. I've warned players, though. Multiple fouls. . . .never heard of one called. That would be a great one to p!ss off a coach! Has anyone called an illegal block on someone for standing with a foot on the boundary line since that rule was put in place?

Haven't made that call yet, but did have to 'T' up a coach b/c of that rule.

2004-05 season, 2-person crew. During pressing situation my partner (Trail) called a block in the backcourt. The play was on my sideline and from the Lead looking back I could see that the defender had a foot clearly OOB at the time of contact. Whether or not that's the reason my partner called a block I don't know and I didn't see the whole play to have an opinion.

When I went to administer the throw-in in the backcourt the coach was near me complaining about my partner's call mostly saying that her player was in position to take a charge; I told the coach I didn't know if her player was there or not, but I do know her foot was OOB at the time of contact which by rule would make it a block. The coach wasn't too impress with that rule nor my explanation of it and continued the discussion to the point where I had to end it with a Technical.

Does anyone besides me see anything wrong with this?

The only thing I'm unsure about is why did BNR administer the throw-in in the back court...

In Texas we don't do long switches, but perhaps in other parts of the country they do..

For 2-man, in my association, it's emphasized that we switch on all fouls.

Tome, please enlighten me. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, I'm pretty tough.

Seriously though, I always welcome a critique of anything I do on the court.

I can understand,a little, that you are looking into the backcourt on a play that isn't in your primary, but is your line. However, why did you explain a call that you admit not knowing about for sure? Why are you explaining someone else's call? Sure, you can get away with this sometimes so it isn't an absolute to say never do it, but in your case you didn't get away with it. I just don't think you should explain the call. Next, you will be explaining a T that someone else called. After that, more yelling occurs...in the official's locker room. Do you think the coach would have got the T without your explaination?

Tom, I don't agree with this criticism.

Badnewsref saw something that clearly justified the call. He told the coach, in so many words, that he can't explain his partner's call *except* that he saw what he saw, which by rule made the call correct.

No biggie, if the coach can't accept that then the T is on him. And if he's already that upset, do you think he would have calmed down if badnews just told him he needs to wait for the next opportunity to speak to his partner?

I don't.

Didn't feel like I was explaining my partner's call. Like I said, I told the coach I didn't know whether player was there in time or not. But I did clearly see that the contact occurred with her player's foot OOB. The coach argued the rule itself and ended the converstion with "that's garbage" in conjunction with a visible wave-off. But I could be wrong in my perception on whether or not I was explaining my partner's call. JMO, but I think the coach was in search of a 'T' in that situation.

But there is no "Next, you will be explaining a T that someone else called." Never happened and never will. I'm very adept in telling coaches they are talking to the wrong official when they whine in my ear about a partner's call.

Also, not much chance of being yelled at in locker room...the advantages of being 6'5"/260lbs ;)

I don't have a problem in two person with the Lead helping out if there is a press going on in the backcourt. Actually, the Lead needs to help out! The Lead can't leave his partner with no help.

Now, maybe it would have been better if you didn't switch, so the coach can ask your partner directly what happened..

I saw this happen this season, where a girl tried to punch the ball out of an opponents grasp, but a technical foul was called for throwing a punch, instead of calling a violation for punching the ball.

Didn't you say this was the dumbest rule on another thread? I guess you're not a big fan of this rule.

This is what he said: "When I went to administer the throw-in in the backcourt the coach was near me complaining about my partner's call mostly saying that her player was in position to take a charge; I told the coach I didn't know if her player was there or not, but I do know her foot was OOB at the time of contact which by rule would make it a block. The coach wasn't too impress with that rule nor my explanation of it and continued the discussion to the point where I had to end it with a Technical."

Let me just take a flyer on this and ask, what if this isn't the reason his partner called the block? Now the explaination (that is what it turned out to be) is taking the coach down the wrong path and the end result is a T. Don't get me wrong, I'm the last person to tell you not to give someone a T, but I'm wondering if the T would have been avoided or delayed :D by telling the coach that your partner would be there shortly to explain.
Also, I don't have a problem with someone helping in a two-person game. However, I don't think this was helping with pressure as much as it was watching his line.
Dan, is this something you are in the habit of doing when your partner has a block/charge call and you end up right in front of the coach? I just don't see myself explaining like this a lot. This explaination could go for any call.

BNR, I have yet to work with someone big enough or mean enough to not ask them WTF were you doing "consoling" (that is what it looks like most of the time) that coach after I gave a T. Call me crazy. :D

I am in the habit of NOT ignoring a coach's question. That goes double if I'm standing right next to him. If I have something to say I'll say it, if not I won't. You don't like that? Tough.

I am not in the habit of taking someone's comment on a particular play and using it to assume that is how they behave always. Something you seem to enjoy.

I am also not in the habit of ever yelling at partners, or being yelled at by partners. Luckily I run into very, very few of these types but the ones who feel the need to yell will be told to stop. Call me crazy. :shrug:

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun BNR, I have yet to work with someone big enough or mean enough to not ask them WTF were you doing "consoling" (that is what it looks like most of the time) that coach after I gave a T. Call me crazy. :D

I've never consoled a coach after a "T". I have politely directed them to take a seat for the remainder of the game (high school). I did on one occassion have a coach who was still upset when I came over to seatbelt him after my partner T'd him (one of those ABS technicals) and I told him this "Whether or not you think WE missed a call, getting a 'T' in this situation didn't help your team". Coach quietly sat down and we didn't have a problem the rest of the game.

But just b/c a coach has been T'd up doesn't mean I'm gonna turn a deaf ear to what he has to say the rest of the game. And I am a proponent of using communication skills to de-escalate situations. If I 'T' a coach and I see my partner talking to him/her immediately afterwards I assume my partner is just trying to calm the coach down and get him/her to his/her seat. I think nothing of it. But again, I'm the trusting sort. :D

[Edited by BadNewsRef on Mar 10th, 2006 at 05:10 PM]

I apologize in advance for coach terminology in describing my answers.

NFHS: Any sort of violation involving the coaching box. Please don't start calling it. Let's think of it like a nuclear missle - a great deterent to have in place with no need to launch. I promise to behave if I'm out of it or be sitting if I'm not behaving.

NBA: Travelling, especially when the pivot foot comes up before dribble is initiated. I think about all the time I worked on a cross-over step in my driveway as a kid and all the chumps I could have left in the dust if I had simply been allowed to move both feet before dribbling.

Freeway: Slow traffic keep right. If you're going the same speed as other traffic, stay out of the left lane and let people who want to go faster go on their way. Damned if you'll ever see a violation called on this though.

[Edited by bebanovich on Mar 10th, 2006 at 04:58 PM]

Let me back up. Yelling my be stretching what I would do, but there still isn't a reason why an official should have a discussion with a coach after a T. The calling official doesn't need help with the T and they sure don't need help explaining the T.
I'm not in the habit of taking someone's comments to mean they do something all the time either. Nor, do I enjoy talking about something that happens even though others would like to live in a dream world thinking it doesn't.
I do not ignore a coach, where did I say that? There is no way I can know what my partner(s) call and their reasoning unless it is a play where we have a double whistle. For that reason, I'm not going to give an explaination. Even if the explaination I give would be what I saw, it isn't fair to assume that is what my partner had when I 1. wasn't sure and 2. didn't have a whistle of my own.

When I say things like this it is because it isn't, IMO, good practice to do them. Unlike some, I cannot make a final judgement on someone's good or bad officiating skills based on the ability to read a rule book and type. However, I have seen these things in the flesh and speak of my own similar experiences. I know when something on this board applies to something I do and when it doesn't. I also know when something is discussed that I have awareness of. If these things don't happen to others, I'm not faulting them, but I know I have seen them. :shrug: That is all I'm saying.

Please don't whine if you do get called. Think of it as a rule....and a Point Of Emphasis in this year's rulebook......and a directive sent out by quite a few state governing bodies that the coaching box <b>must</b> be called as per the rule, or you get one warning before being nailed. Behavior has nothing to do with the call either. If you wander, you're taking your chances.

Dan_Ref this what I think tomegun is trying to say.....

Just Kidding Tome......just keeping the mood like on this beautiful Friday afternoon.

It all depends on with whom you are working. There is a very good official on my HS board who operates under the same philosphy as you Tome. So I know when I'm working with him to stand back and let him handle all his own business. But then again, I work with other outstanding officials who don't mind if I address a coach in their stead b/c they trust whatever I'm saying will not be detrimental to the crew. Just a matter of knowing the people you work with and adjusting accordingly. Just like players and coaches, we officials all have our own personalities, as well as our own quirks and pet peeves. Which all makes for good forum fodder.

Well if that's what he thinks then you better straighten him out!

:eek:

:D

I've seen on here before that it was a point of emphasis but I haven't seen it even warned in our area. Which makes me curious, how are the POE's handled? Are they determined nationally and then sort of reemphasized regionally?

Beautiful Friday afternoon?! What the hell are you lookin' at?! What are you blind?!

:D

I've seen on here before that it was a point of emphasis but I haven't seen it even warned in our area. Which makes me curious, how are the POE's handled? Are they determined nationally and then sort of reemphasized regionally? [/B][/QUOTE]Yes, POE's are determined by the NFHS Rules Committee, which is a national body. They then can be further re-emphasisized regionally. This particular POE states that it's an <b>immediate</b> "T" if a coach wanders out of his box, with no warning required. Thatr's as per the written rule. Some states, examples-Illinois and MASS, I think- have issued directives that <b>one</b> warning should be issued to a coach who is out of their box, and the next occurrence is a "T". Iirc, someone from Illinois also posted that their state governing body said that officials who wouldn't call that "T" as directed would <b>not</b> get year-end playoff games.

And, as I stated above, it makes no difference if you're out of the box coaching or whining either. They're supposed to be treated the same.

If it's not being called in your area, that's fine. If you go out of your area for a game and you get called, you know why.

It's interesting that it sounds like this particular POE hasn't been equally embraced, but I don't want to further hijack the thread.

I know some officials might not believe me but, although I might be shocked to get a coaching box T without warning and while positioning players, it's not the kind of thing I'm going to challenge or whine about during a game.

The rule is clear and if I'm out of my box I've got no argument. I have chosen to ignore the rule because I don't ever sit down, my players can't see the game when I stand in the little box and, thus far, no one has called it. My moral code says that's not cheating because there is no unfair advantage but the rule book says that's a violation. On the court the rulebook beats out any personal rules I have for myself - as it should and must. I might be upset if I thought someone saw and ignored it all game until there were 30 seconds left in a tie, but that's a different beef.

My whining would happen here later and would be about the purpose of the rule and necessity of calling it like travelling vs. using as a tool to control when necessary. But now I'm hijacking when I said I wouldn't.

How about the rule that a team has to submit it's roster and starters prior to 10 minutes.

Had a HS-GV game 1½ years ago where the official said he wasn't going to call it because 'He was here for basketball'. {Funny, that is part of basketball, last I checked}

And I've already vented about my NCAA-W game last month where the visiting coach didn't do it until 1 minute before gametime without any penalty.

Not to hijack the thread, but I want to, as a player, invoke the sub rule that says a captain can request opposing subs to stand in a line if there are 3 or more of them. I wonder how many officials would honor that request (how many team captains ever make this request?). :D

Stand in a line?

A captain can ask for a defensive match-up if 3 or more subs from the other team comes in, but there's no requirement to stand in a line....or stand anywhere for that matter. We just give them a few seconds to decide who they're each gonna take, is all.

Ca BBall Ref
 

Hey Ca ref maybe we saw the same game. I know one of the guys on the crew at the game I was at and he was pissed. He said he was outvoted by the other two in how they would administer the SITCH.

Had a partner who "T'd" a flopper. Coach went nuts. He did warn the player before he called it.

I've called the block with foot on the line several times. Coaches still seem to teach this to their kids. Just put the foot near the line.

Yes, POE's are determined by the NFHS Rules Committee, which is a national body. They then can be further re-emphasisized regionally. This particular POE states that it's an <b>immediate</b> "T" if a coach wanders out of his box, with no warning required. Thatr's as per the written rule. Some states, examples-Illinois and MASS, I think- have issued directives that <b>one</b> warning should be issued to a coach who is out of their box, and the next occurrence is a "T". Iirc, someone from Illinois also posted that their state governing body said that officials who wouldn't call that "T" as directed would <b>not</b> get year-end playoff games.

And, as I stated above, it makes no difference if you're out of the box coaching or whining either. They're supposed to be treated the same.

If it's not being called in your area, that's fine. If you go out of your area for a game and you get called, you know why. [/B][/QUOTE]

Texas has also come down very hard on the coaching box. We were told that if we didn't enforce the box we wouldn't be getting playoff assignments. They also said that if the chapter as a whole didn't enforce it the ENTIRE CHAPTER would not be getting regional playoff assignments. On top of all this they told us that if an official was chronically not enforcing the coaching box the ethics committee would get involved.

Some of our gyms don't have a box taped down or the box is taped in the middle of the bench. We have been instructed to ask the coach to tape the box in it's proper position. If he/she refuses we are to seat belt the home coach and allow the visiting coach the first three chairs.

I would concurr Juulie. I called this violation this year. The coach didn't have a clue (of course, ;)) what was going on, so I had to do some explaining.

Wow. In your opinion, is this coming in response to coach misbehavior that has gotten out of hand or is there a perception that enforcement of the coach's box has been lax regardless of coach behavior?

I saw a coaching box warning given this weekend during the State Semi-Final game.

How about ...
 

How about the all time fantasy of whacking the fans with a T. Oh what a dream, and a sure and delicious recipe for chaos.

See Duke @ FSU March 1, 2006. :D

Probably both. They have told us every year to enforce the box and all the season veterans have used the old "if he's coaching I don't care where he is". There were some coaches who really pushed the limit. I think their theory was if the coach was in the box he wouldn't get T'd up for being right in the officials face after a call (we had coaches that would be right down on the baseline).

I know that during the first month of the season six DISD coaches were ejected over the coaching box. The UIL gave each a FOUR GAME district suspension. I think most of the coaches got the message by the end of the year that they are supposed to stay in the box.

This thread raises several questions I have had since I started officiating 7 years ago. (and yes, I did read just about every post in the thread before I posted this)

1) Why have rules, if the officials are going to consistently choose not to administer them?

2) Why do officials take pride in the fact that they have "never" or "rarely" made calls, which by the rules, are required to be made? (3 seconds or technical fouls, for example)

I understand there is a certain amount of judgement required for the administration of the rules - but some rules are cut and dried, and when officials choose not to enforce them, because they a) don't like the rule, b) don't like the effect calling it is going to have on the coach, players, fans, game flow, etc, or c) just don't care (which I have worked with officials who have said this to me in response to why a call wasn't made on something i felt was obvious, but was in their primary, so I passed), it doesn't make sense to have those rules in place.

Just like a cop can choose not to give you a ticket for speeding, officials can choose not to administer a specific rule under a specific circumstance. However, in both cases, a rule/law was broken, so how do you explain to the people that feel cheated (or were cheated) by a lack of administration of the rule, why you chose not to call it?

A good example of this one is 5 seconds closely guarded. The rule says within 6 feet. If a defender has been within 6 feet guarding a player who has continued to stand or dribble, they have done everything that they need to in order to get possession of the ball. Choosing not to extend the count out to 6 feet, or not counting "real" seconds, or not starting the count as soon as the closely guarded situation exists, is penalizing the defense for doing what they are supposed to.

To an extent, I agree with you. I call the book, including three seconds if it happens. However, I've never seen the occasion to call the multiple foul, for example.

But there is a big difference between never seeing a situation to call a particular rule, and choosing not to call it for the various reasons I listed above. Major difference.

Since there has been some discussion about this, I need to ask a question.... Regarding the rule of a blocking foul to be called if the defender has a foot on the OOB line. What if the offensive player lowers the shoulder and makes contact with the player OOB. Which takes precedent? Do you have a PC foul or a block?

By definition, if you call it straight by the book, any contact in that situation is a blocking foul. The only way you could call a foul on the offensive player is if it was intentional or flagrant, the way I understand it. It's impossible to have LGP with a foot out of bounds, so no offensive foul.

This rule simply states that a player who is OOB can't have LGP. It doesn't say they can't be fouled. If the foul doesn't depend on LGP, you can still have an offensive foul.

The case book gives an example of a player, in the process of guarding another player, steps on the line and is contacted while the foot is OOB. It is a block since the contact occured while the defender didn't have LGP at the time of contact and needed to have it (defender was actively guarding/moving) in order for it to be a charge.

Also, don't be confused by the lowering of the shoulder. It's ALL about LGP. If the defender is moving toward the dribbler and is not in a LGP it can be his foul even if the offensive player lowers his shoulder. The offensive player is not reqired to collide with the defender in any specific orientation in order to draw a foul. Howveer, the lowering of the shoulder is a clue to who caused the contact if the defender is legal.





[Edited by Camron Rust on Mar 14th, 2006 at 09:12 PM]

A slightly different question
 

I was just thinking of this point as I was catching up on this thread. There's a difference between the most-often-ignored rules and the least-called rules.
Multiple foul would arguably be the least called, but not the most ignored.
Three-seconds is likely the most ignored, but not the least called. In girls games, the heel over the lane line would be the most ignored.

Re: A slightly different question
 

What heel? I didn't see it! :D

Game sense. Sometimes it doesn't benefit the game to make a highly technical call. For example, the heel on the lane line for 3 seconds opposite the ball -- by rule, it's a 3-second violation. But it doesn't satisfy the spirit of the rule.

To younger officials or those who haven't stepped up into higher level (let's say consistent varsity schedules) see this as inconsistent. Eventually, though, once the light comes on, it becomes having a feel for the game and calling it accordingly.

First of all, I appreciate the help, Camron, but I am going to have to disagree with you based on what rules meetings I have been to in my area. They have stressed that NO MATTER what the defender is doing (shuffling the feet to keep pace with the defender, etc), if the offensive player does an act (and they usually use the lowering the shoulder example) to create separation, it should be called an offesive foul. Are my rules people off on this? That is why I asked the question originally because I have been drilled with the fact that an offensive player lowering the shoulder should be called a PC foul.

Camron is correct. He has it nailed down to the fine details. The people in your area telling you otherwise don't seem to know the rules as well as Camron does.

What he posted above is an excellent piece on how to properly handle these situations.

I think that you might be missing the key point of Camron's response above. The call for a dribbler lowering a shoulder into the torso of a defender does depend on whether that defender had LGP or not. A dribbler pushing off with an arm doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with LGP and can be a PC foul.

Ok, I am not sure if you guys are still on the topic of the OOB portion of this question...

But I dont care what you say, if a defender is in any type of guarding position that is not impeding the offensive player and the offensive player initiates contact through lower the shoulder in an attempt to create separation or gaining position, I am going to call that everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.....

That is why I asked the original question of whether or not the OOB or the lowering the shoulder takes precedent.

That's fine. You don't have to care what anybody here says. That's certainly your right and privilege.

Imo though, you're completely wrong and so is whoever is interpreting the rules in your area. Specifically you're mis-interpreting case book play 4.23.3SitB(a).

Btw, if you don't care what anybody says, why did you bother asking the question in the first place? :confused:

Never seen it happen, so that's why I've never seen it called.

How about 10 seconds to shoot a foul shot?

I called it once in a rec game a few years ago (only time I've ever seen it called). Early in the game some guy took like 13-14 seconds to shoot a foul shot. I "suggested" to him that on future foul shots he shoot within 10 seconds. Later, in the 2nd half, he has two shots. First shot, again a 13-14 second count (and I count slowly). Sure enough, on the next shot he does it again, so when I got to 10 I gave him the whistle.

Fast forward to an association meeting earlier this season and this rule came up. When our rules interpretor asked if anyone had ever seen it called, I said yes, I had called it once. He, and everyone else in the room for that matter, looked at me like I was from another planet. Come to think of it, maybe I am.

Wow, that's impressive. I think the highest I've ever gotten is 8 seconds, and that's a pretty slow count!

Last week, I saw a kid fake his foul shot. It was a two shot foul. He did it on the first shot...nobody moved. I couldn't believe it and thought he must have lost his grip or something. He did it again on the second shot. I caught him on his way to the bench and told him to stop it. He stopped.

10 second violation on the free throw
shooter...I have never had to call it
in the 34 years of being licensed.

Just a tip, guys. If you start your post with, "I only saw this once, 20 years ago. . ." or "I've only called this once. . ." then it doesn't qualify. The very first response in this thread is the winner, b/c it's never been called: multiple foul.

Well, I hate to keep on torturing you like this but your statement is not exactly true.

During a cyo type game as a relative newbie I called a foul on B1. B2, being smart, realized B1 was getting in foul trouble and he followed me to the table begging for the foul.

So I gave it to him. And to B1.

Congratulations on being the first and only ref to admitting to calling the multiple foul! And great circumstances, too. Next time that happens, I'll have to remember that one!

It sureasheck has been called. I had a partner call this in a game in my first year. Great guy too. Still a good friend to this day.

He never called it again though, after the crap he took from his peers for making that call. :)

I don't believe you. And even if I did. . . shut up.

I sureasheck don't believe you either. And even if I did, see my previous post.

How impudent.

Go to your room until I tell you to come out.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias as tears welled up in his eyes and he quietly sobbed...

LOL!! :p

Now you've done it.....

http://www.smiling-faces.com/smilies/crying.gif

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. :)