This situation was mentioned to me last night before a game and I think I know the answer, but I want to run it by the forum. Very simple situation, I want to know the proper administration.

Simultaneous fouls: A1 fouls B1, B2 fouls A2. B2's foul is intentional.

Clearly simultaneous, clearly intentional. How do we administer?

No FT's-go to POI.

That's what I thought, JR, and that's what the guys on the game did. But it just seems wrong NOT to shoot FTs for an intentional foul. I kept looking through the case plays and couldn't find anything. I just kept coming back to the definition of "simultaneous foul", which says that it's two fouls committed by opponents, but not against each other.

Agreed. Though it seems "unfair" to A, it's no different than double personal fouls when A is in the bonus and B isn't -- A "loses" out on the FTs.

What would we do in the case of A1 fouls B1, and simultaneously B2 curses A2?...An intentional foul, like a technical foul, carries its own penalty...

Would we just go to POI??????

What is simultaneous?
 

Okay, work with me on this and see if you agree with the logic:

A personal foul by A1 against B1 and a technical foul by by B1 against A1 would not be considered a double foul, as the rule book refers a double technical or a double personal. The rule book does not define a personal foul and a technical foul, committed by opponents against each other as a double foul.

The way I read it, the only difference in double fouls and simultaneous fouls is that simultaneous fouls are not committed against by two opponents against each other.

Therefore, I would treat it as a false double foul and rule that you would shoot FTs as what you describe would not meet the definition of simultaneous fouls. Since the fouls will probably be called by different officials, you should have room to rule that one came after the other. You could possibly do this in the original situation as well.

Re: What is simultaneous?
 

BBR I would agree except for one item. The simultaneous foul definition says "A simultaneous foul (personal or technical)....."

With that in mind I think that the originl situation would be a simultaneous foul since that definition doesn't break them out individually like the double fould definition does...however I am thinking that you could correctly "assume" that one occured before the other and now make it a false double....or better yet "make" one occur before the other.

Re: Re: What is simultaneous?
 

That does not mean a combination of personal and technical but two of either.

A1 fouls B1 and B2 fouls A2 or A1 gets a T for calling one official a doody head at the same time B2 gets a T for saying it to another official.

Re: Re: Re: What is simultaneous?
 

I humbly disagree and this is why. We already have definitions of double fouls and double technicals. I believe that the parenthesis indicate that either/or or a combination of the two. If it weren't meant to be this way then there would be no need for a simultaneous fould definition, because the situation would fit nicely into the definition of a double foul or a false double foul. IMHO

Re: Re: Re: Re: What is simultaneous?
 

DF or DTF are committed by players on both teams against each other. SF fouls are fouls committed by both teams at the same time, but not player against player, and that is the difference between the two.

The rule is clearly intended as simultaneous personal or technicals and not one personal and one technical.

Re: Re: Re: Re: What is simultaneous?
 

I disagree. The definition of a simultaneous folu is needed because the fouls are not against one another. I agree with BZ that the two fouls must be the same, just as they have to be the same for a double foul. As I stated, I believe simulataneous fouls are identical in definition to double fouls, except that the fouls are not committed against each other. That's clearly spelled out in the rule.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is simultaneous?
 

Ok I see the light now LOL...I do believe we could do away with the simultaneous foul and just add some language such as "personal fouls committed by each team at approxiamately the same time" or "technical fouls committed by each team at approxiamately the same time" but that might be toooooo easy....

Re: What is simultaneous?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Therefore, I would treat it as a false double foul and rule that you would shoot FTs as what you describe would not meet the definition of simultaneous fouls. Since the fouls will probably be called by different officials, you should have room to rule that one came after the other. You could possibly do this in the original situation as well.

You lost me on this one. Thought second half of a false double foul occurs after the ball is dead and before the clock starts:

Rule 4 Section 26 Art. 12. False double foul. A false double foul occurs when there are fouls
by both teams, the second of which occurs before the game clock is started
after it is stopped for the first but such that at least one of the attributes of
a double foul is absent.

Bad News Man
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BadNewsRef

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef Quote: Therefore, I would treat it as a false double foul and rule that you would shoot FTs as what you describe would not meet the definition of simultaneous fouls. Since the fouls will probably be called by different officials, you should have room to rule that one came after the other. You could possibly do this in the original situation as well. You lost me on this one. Thought second half of a false double foul occurs after the ball is dead and before the clock starts: Rule 4 Section 26 Art. 12. False double foul. A false double foul occurs when there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the game clock is started after it is stopped for the first but such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

Badnews, there is no such rule article and section. The fouls are listed under rule 4 article 19......hmmmmmmm

Re: Bad News Man
 

Sorry, should have mentioned that this was referenced from 2006 NCAA rulebook. My NFHS book is out in the car.

Re: Re: What is simultaneous?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BadNewsRef

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef Quote: Therefore, I would treat it as a false double foul and rule that you would shoot FTs as what you describe would not meet the definition of simultaneous fouls. Since the fouls will probably be called by different officials, you should have room to rule that one came after the other. You could possibly do this in the original situation as well. You lost me on this one. Thought second half of a false double foul occurs after the ball is dead and before the clock starts: Rule 4 Section 26 Art. 12. False double foul. A false double foul occurs when there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the game clock is started after it is stopped for the first but such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

B1 fouls A1 as whistled by the L.
A2 curses B2 as whistled by the T.

You're the official. You have discretion to judge that the foul by A2 occurs after the foul by B1.

Then it becomes a false double foul instead of a simlutaneous foul.

Or if you decide that A2 cursed first, you disregard the contact because now the ball is dead, and you only penalize if it was intentional or flagrant???

But, going back to the original situation, do you disregard the intentional foul, report the two offenders, and go to POI?

Or do you report both fouls, but let the player offended by the intentional (A2) shoot free throws, and give team A the ball back nearest the spot of the foul?

This is from the NCAA rulebook: Rule 10 Sect 23 Art 2e

No free throws for:
1. Each common foul before the bonus rule takes effect.
2. A player-control personal foul.
3. A team-control foul.
4. A double personal foul or simultaneous personal foul, even
when one or both of the fouls are flagrant or intentional.