I know that this is probably very subjective but what kind of comments are acceptable and unacceptable from a coach? I know that some coaches like to "work" the referees but I was wondering when their comments overstep the boundary. I have some examples below and could you tell me which are acceptable and not?

1. "What kind of call was that?"
2. "You've got to be kidding me!"
3. "C'mon ref, you have to call it both ways!"
4. "1, 2, 3" (counting 3 seconds for you)
5. "Oh! That wasn't a foul!"

I know that some comments are more neutral, like when coaches point out violations, like calling out traveling or double dribbles, but I was wondering about if these are ever acceptable.

I would probably ignore all 5 of those comments.

I would ignore all those comments unless I was standing right in front of the coach and we made some kind of eye contact.

Peace

1. Ignore.
2. Ignore.
3. If I hear this a couple times, I may tell a coach that he can question my calls all he wants but I will not have my integrity called into question. I'll tell him that nicely and firmly. Once.
4. Again, if it's repititious, I may tell the coach, "I'm well aware of the rule, coach. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll take it from here."
5. Ignore. After all, if I called it, it was. Although I did give a coach one who spent the better part of a minute, "Come on! You've GOT to call a foul!" I did.

...And you were working Lead, ... opposite ? :)
mick

none of these directly deserve a response - repeated use of 3 and 4 will get a word or two from me and stop sign - then trouble might ensue.
But as long as it isn't demeaning, personal, flagrant, or persistent, I have more important things to worry about than the coach.
Most of the time they call themselves!

1. ignore
2. ignore (until I could think of a snappy comeback)
3. make sure he sees me glancing at the team foul count on the scoreboard
4. repeated use of this one would probably graduate from stop sign, to warning, to tech
5. ignore

He would not get that far. :D

Peace

Thanks everyone. I have to referee (reluctantly) for our 5th and 6th grade teams because our games are early and referees can't make it to our games in time. Most times coaches behave themselves but I have a hard time blocking out their comments. Sometimes when they beg for a call or they point out a call, it makes it very difficult for me to blow the whistle because I don't want it to seem like I'm responding to what they're asking for. It's good to know how and what they can say. Everything other than, "that's a good call ref..." usually raises my blood pressure when I'm doing the job...

What you may need are some simple verbal acknowledgments <U>to</U> the coaches to let them know that you heard them:
"I'll watch for that."
"I'm looking for that."
"I understand."
"Love your tie."
mick

I would comment to 3 if I was near him. I would take care of 4 at the next deadball or if I was near him.

For the most part I would initially ignore these comments but don't allow him to %*$(@ the whole game. Tell them to shutup and don't put up with it. I know in rec ball I have a low tolerance for these types of coaches and I have seen many officials take way to much chirping from the coaches at this level. Just my opinion.

The problem with this question is the fact that there is no one size fits all answer. We all do not have the same threshold for what coaches might say. I know for me I have fewer patients for coaches at the JH levels. Coaches at this level should be coaching, not focusing on me. When you work college and HS ball, the coaches tend to pick their spots and know what is acceptable. If coaches are newer at the HS and college level, they soon learn what to not do. I worked last night with a coach that was newer the last few years and I had T'd one of his assistants last year. This coach used to complain on just about every call. I had him twice within a week (Friday of last week and Wednesday of this week) and he could not have been a nicer guy in both games. I think most experienced officials would ignore a single comment like you have listed. If those comments persist, then their might be something most of us might address. Also it does matter the tone of the comments and are they yelling the comments all across the court or are the coaches having a very quite word with you one on one. Only experience is going to determine what an official can tolerate or have to address immediately.

Peace

At this level, all 5 of the comments listed will be dealt with the same way.

1. First offense; ignored.
2. Second offense; ignored.
3. Third offense; warning.
4. Fourth offense; T.

Step two will get skipped if the 2nd offense occurs too quickly after the first.
"Assistant" coaches at this level get even less leeway.
1. First offense; warning to head coach.
2. Second offense; T.

For a variety of reasons, coaches at this level have no business challenging calls.

I ignore them all. However, as a coach and a ref, I am sure I give the coach's way too much rope. However, its never gotten me into a bind....yet.

I always thought the stop sign was a warning. Or, more to the point, the (singular) warning.

1-3 and 5 I'm not even hearing, but I'd probably address #4 as I'm not going to have the coach counting for me. Truth is, I'm not going to have that in a varsity game, although Tuesday night one coach started counting on a 5 second closely guarded and my partner nipped that one pretty quickly.

What I'd like to say, though, is "Coach, I notice you struggling. The one after 3 is 4."

What did he do to Nip it? Just FMI, I get counters who don't actually understand the rule.

Just adding, don't put up with much crap at all in a 5th or 6th grade league. The players in general are not good enough to enforce the rules as written. The coaches should be concerned with making their players better, not giving you a hard time.

FMI ?

For My Information

At this level, I would tell the coaches to cool it right off the bat, even before the game. This isn't the NBA.

Tell them you are all they've got and if you hear any crap from them they can ref the game themselves. They should be setting an example of sportsmanship for the kids and not worrying about calls.

Do you get paid for this? If not, tell them you'll coach their team and they can take the abuse.

Sorry, my annual rec league stint is about to start.;)

I think that what's happening nowadays is that there is little sportsmanship involved from the coach and it filters down to players. They see coaches like Bobby Knight and they think that they are the example of the attentive/alert coach or strategic coach. I used to say a lot more (I coach as well) but after my first experience refereeing an alumni league game from my old high school, I had a different respect for referees. I think a lot of people who criticize refs, have never donned a whistle...

Jimgolf

"Do you get paid for this? If not, tell them you'll coach their team and they can take the abuse."

Hi Jimgolf,
We get paid $10 a game and sometimes I feel like paying someone else the $10 to take my place. We are shorthanded and if I don't do it, we'd only have one ref and I don't want him/her to have to call the game alone...

I used to say that rec league fees ($10-$20 a game) buys my whistle, but not my game management. I was half-kidding.

What the heck do you mean by #3??? You don't actually give hiim the impression that you're making sure that you are calling the fouls evenly, do you? That's the LAST place I'd look.

How about, "Coach I got to about 4 but your counting out loud confused me and I had to start over."

Coach, is a smarta$$ response what you want to hear when you are working the officials during your game? Somehow I doubt it.

Reluctantref, what was your position before you started reffing? If you were a coach or a parent, then I nominate you for hero of the year. To voluntarily step into this position, just for the good of the game, is positively saintly.

Also, if you were a coach or parent, then I think your action should be a little different than if you were a ref from the local association who's trying to help out your compatriots. If you were a coach or a parent, I think you and your ref partner need to meet with the coaches before each game and just say that the refs for this game are trying to make the game better, and trying to help the kids learn a little basketball. You don't deserve to be yelled at, and you won't tolerate it. It also sets a bad example for the kids. You've been studying the rules, and you're doing the best you can and they should leave you alone to do your job. Remind them that the four of you are working together, not as opponents, and if you do continue to be at least civil, the kids will grow and mature a lot faster, and their basketball will get better.

Also, e-mail me and I'll send you some other helpful stuff privately.

THERELUCTANTREF, arguing (in the topic of this thread) is never OK with me. But the <B>WAY</B> the coach says any of these is as important as <B>WHAT</B> the coach says. I agree with most everyone when it comes to ignoring these types of comments. If at all possible...ignore all of these. There have also been a few posts that point out that you can acknowledge what the coach is saying. I totally agree...this can take a lot of his / her frustration away. As stated by others, a simple phrase like, "Ok coach, I'll watch for it.", and many others can really help.

On the other hand, I can see how any of the above phrases might result in an automatic "T" under the right circumstances. Imagine, again, the coach is saying any one of the above phrases to you. But this time you are opposite the table and he / she is yelling it across the court while waving their arms in the air. That might warrant a more punitive response from me (yes, I'm talking about a T)...even if no warning had been given yet.

I think you and Rut both identified that dealing with coaches is very subjective. I think you just have to develop a "feel" for when it's OK to talk to the coach, when it's time to stop talking, and when it's time to call the infraction and issue the T. And the only way I know to developp this "feel" is to just keep working more and more games. Good luck.

RPirtle

Today, I was watching a D-II game in person and saw a head coach, on the floor right after a held ball call, give the official the "choke" sign. I think that deserved a T. I think the officials choked by not giving the T. IMO, the coach crossed the line.

I worked a Juco playoff game on Saturday. I called a foul on a player during a scramble for a ball on the floor. The kid got up and walked over to me like he wanted to chat about it. I just said "Get out of my face," and his teammate pulled him away.

Another official who was in the stands said that after the kid moved away from me, he gestured "impolitely" at my back; pointing and probably saying something. I would have T'd it if I'd seen it, but it was behind me.

Maybe the officials in that D2 game simply didn't see the "choke" gesture if there was something else happening on the floor.

The cowards are hard to find. :(
But they'll eventually get theirs.

One of your partners shoulda got that one.

That where the "Freeze" vision mechanic of the free official is useful. Sadly, I feel that mechanic conflicts with the newer "tempo" mechanics of getting the ball back in play.
mick

Probably, but they were making sure the bodies on the floor got untangled without incident. I made sure that "my guy" didn't cause any more trouble, but there were other players on the floor.

It's standard practice for 1 of the 3 officials to stay out of the pile to observe...what happened here? Must have been a huge mess.

Well, one of the 3 went to report the foul. I think my partners were just trying to untangle the other 3 or 4 guys on the floor. The guys on the floor probably seemed like the more likely source of trouble.

I have allowed a coach to get away with a little more than I would normally, when the score was close and a "T" would really hurt his players. Now don't jump all over me for this. I'm talking a "little more" and "really hurt."

My personal tolerance level is relatively high. If the coach is not screaming from one side of the court to the other, and his comments are not meant to demean me, I'll listen. Cross the line where his intent is to embarrass/demean me, then he earned it regardless of the pain he inflicts on his team.

Why did he leave the area with tangled bodies on the floor? In hindsight it doesn't look like the right thing to have done, no?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]Really? The stuff behind you wasn't any more trouble?

I'm with Dan. Somebody should be watching. If they're all over the floor, then give your partner a hand sorting it out, and don't bother reporting until the mess is cleaned up.

If two officials can't handle 4 guys on the floor, then we have bigger problems than a gesture at my back. The guys on the floor were being handled. So there was no reason for me to be there.

The guy behind me was behind me. I can't very well eyeball him forever; I have to report the foul sometime. His teammate took him out of my face and that's all I cared about.

I really don't think there was much more to be done, unless you're saying that the reporting official should always wait to report until all bodies are up off the floor and separated. And in that case, I would probably disagree with you. And even if I agreed with you, this kid would still have made the gesture behind my back. So I still think there wasn't much more that could've been done.

We disagree.

2 guys untangling (your word) 4 players on the floor means there is 1 guy left to monitor everything else. Jogging to the table & crisply reporting the foul should be the least of your concerns.

I didn't jog away until I thought things were settled on the floor, and they were. The only thing that was not "handled" was the gesture at my back, which would've happened regardless of how long I waited to report.

If I'd waited an extra 2 minutes for everybody to get up and migrate away from each other, then we might've gotten the T for the gesture. But I'm willing to trade that T for those 2 minutes.

Why are you so worried about some kid giving you the finger behind your back? We agree, there's nothing that can be done about that. In this sitch I'm more worried about that kid or some other kid cold-cocking his opponent behind your back. And having everyone in the building see it EXCEPT for the 3, count 'em 3 (!) officials. Just as everyone in the building saw your friend give you the finger, or whatever it was he did that you and your 2 partners did not see.

If you want to keep saying you're happy with how this played out then fine, just be aware that the way it played out was the crew missed something that was painfully obvious to everyone else.

That's all I'm saying.

Ok, I guess I can see that. (You're right, I was fixated on the gesture; I was missing your larger point.)

All I can say to that point is that I guess the concern about kids getting rough was in front of us on the floor. While it could, of course, happen somewhere else, it just seemed that any real threat of punches or elbows was being handled.

Point taken, tho. Sorry I didn't see it sooner.

Sigh.

Do you not realize that when engaging in a discussion on an internet forum it is extremely poor form to concede a point in such a straight forward manner? Now, repeat after me:

You make a good argument - one I'm sure Hitler would have agreed with 110%.

:p

Chuck, many times I see these officials try not to look at the coaches so that they avoid the stare or the gesture when reporting a foul, signalling a violation or during a TO. I can understand them trying to avoid problems, but this time the action of the coach was apparent to everyone else in the arena. I guess I have to assume they didn't see it, but if they did, then they blew it.

We've all heard these ever since day 1 of officiating. For the most part I'd ignore all of them but if they kept persistent but in a respectable, ADULT manner and I happened to be by their bench I might say:
1)A standard call
2)No sir, it's real
3)We are and will continue to
4)I wasn't watching the lane, I'll keep an eye on it for ya
5)Oh sure it was
Now if the coach gets in a belligerent tone before the potential Tech I'd say:
1)"THE RIGHT ONE"
2)"DOES IT LOOK LIKE I'M KIDDING YOU"
3)"NO I DON'T"
4)Here I wouldn't say anything then I'd make a 3 second call on his player
5)"YEA IT WAS, WANT TO HEAR IT AGAIN?"

One of my technicals this season was on a coach gesturing at my partner's back. I'll NEVER pass on this -- if a coach is going to do something so cowardly, I'll whack him every time.

On the "leaving to report," I'm with Dan. 2-person or 3-person, I hope I'm not leaving the scene of the foul until the players are up and separated. But I'm also with Chuck -- 2 officials should've been able to handle the players.