I was watching a game at camp, (I had on my stripes), sitting near the table. About half-way through the second quarter, a foul was called on B2, his fourth. As the table was busy writing it down,and the players on the floor were setting up for shots, Coach A came over to the table and said, "Can we put that onto number 35?" (The player who had committed the foul was 22). The table guy looked up uncertainly for a moment. Then he kind of looked around for help or back-up or something. The coach said, "I mean, otherwise, Tommy is going to foul out in the first half." (This kid was playing very roughly, and probably should have fouled our already). The table guy was just not sure what to do. I stood up and said, "No, you can't do that. If it's called on 22, it goes on 22" Then I started to sit down again. The coach said, "Cmon, it's just camp". I said, "Yes, but it's high school rules straight down, and that is not okay" (I didn't say, "If I have to wear these hot, long pants...") The table guy then turned to the game and the coach sat back down.

Questions: Was I wrong to interfere? Should I have reported it to the ref on the floor? If I were the ref in charge, and I heard that little conversation, what should I have done? Isn't it just unbelievable what poeple wwill try to get away with???

Answers:
Yes. No. Make sure the foul goes to #22. I'm no longer
surprised.

Okay, I goofed. I'll be less likely to repeat the mistake if someone can give me a good philosophical reason why it wasn't appropriate for me to stick in my oar. Would it be okay for a mom to interfere? Would the answers be different if this happened during the season? Should the table person report this to the ref? Why isn't what that coach did a technical foul? I can't find any book references to back up my actions, but this seems like cheating, and so it seems like there ought to be a penalty. Thanks for any help.

Some of the camps I have attended, we reported to a trash can. This sounds like the kind of camp this team needs to go to. If they have agreed to record fouls then #22 has to have the foul recorded to him. I had a game last fall where the foul count was 5-2 in the first half. You guessed it. All 5 were on the same player and he fouled out. We had a 2-1 foul count in the second half and it was wonderful.

As for the appropriatness of your actions, that is debatible. I would say wait until you are asked directly. I don't think this should have been reported to the officials on the floor but the scorer should have ignored the coach and did what is right. If the coach starts getting upset with it then the officials on the floor can handle it.

[Edited by Tim Roden on Jun 21st, 2001 at 09:17 AM]

I think it is up to the officials on the court to handle it. We don't benefit from people in the stands interacting with coaches and the table. Your motives were pure, but no good deed goes unpunished!

One of the burrs under my saddle are the ubiquitous fans who yell "the score is wrong" for days on end. Good grief, each team has umteen managers and assistants keeping stats/score ... if they have an objection, they won't keep it a secret.

Regarding the coach's actions ... he/she cannot be at the table for that reason (he/she can be there to request a timeout, but cannot implement the scoring change), so the officials need to inform him/her of that and get him/her back to the bench. Obviously, the table should not make a change without conferring with the officials

Any time a coach is at the table, I get in on the conversation. I try to protect the table folks from abuse, they (the table) can be a tremendous ally or a deadly enemy to a well-administered game, so I try to keep them on my side.

Yupper!
 

Dan,
You copied my answer sheet. :(

HS team camp we're working now has as some of it's rules:

<b><li>No five foul elimination on player.<li>...there will be no individual player statistics ... kept.
</b>mick

Re: Yupper!
 

Do the players know they can't foul out?

If so is that not potentially very risky

Re: Re: Yupper!
 

I don't know, Malcom. They don't foul out in their practices without officials.
And that is pretty much what team camps are. ;)
mick

It would be OK for a non-official mom to say whatever she feels like about this (non-offensive or abusive of course).

From the original post, the foul was on B and it was coach A that made the suggestion...sounds like a fair minded opponent trying to make the camp enjoyable for both side. Certainly not a T.

Still, it should be charged to the correct kid. Doing so will be of more help than charging it to another..he needs to learn what is a foul.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 22nd, 2001 at 12:39 PM]

Oh, my, gosh!!! You're right that is what the post says and it's wrong. It was coach B that made the "suggestion" and that's why I was upset -- I felt he was cheating. Okay that explains the problem, why I was receiving answers I wasn't expecting. Or does it? Since it was Coach B, does that change anyone's answer, or was I still out of line?

I don't think it changes anything. Don't take it personally but you stuck your nose in where it didn't belong. Unless you're asked, stay out of it. You may not believe it but I have the same problem from time to time! :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Oh, my, gosh!!! You're right that is what the post says and it's wrong. It was coach B that made the "suggestion" and that's why I was upset -- I felt he was cheating. Okay that explains the problem, why I was receiving answers I wasn't expecting. Or does it? Since it was Coach B, does that change anyone's answer, or was I still out of line?

My answer doesn't change. I figgered what you meant.

I knew when I asked that I'd get a real answer, and that's what I wanted. I don't take it personally. If I didn't have a pretty thick sckin by now, I'd be dead!

I didn't address it in my earlier post but I agree with the others. You should leave it alone and just watch the game.

Personally, I try to make sure I'm never wearing my stripes unless I'm actively working the game at hand.

Joe

Did the camp require pants or did you choose to wear them? This is a question that has plagued me for a long time. If the director does not require pants, does one wear them to stand out? Does standing out like this help or hurt you in the long run? Maybe it is a non-issue, I don't know. Thoughts anyone?

Most camps will either "require pants" or be "pants optional", in my experience. In "pants optional" camps, those who wear pants are probably just more comfortable wearing pants than shorts...I don't think they are trying to stand out.

By the sounds of Juulie's (I hope you don't mind me referring to you as Juulie) camp, it sounds like the pants were required.

My philosophy...if you look good in shorts and can wear them...wear em' :)

...just don't wear white socks, please! :rolleyes:

Every camp I've attended requires all officials to wear
pants. None of them requires us to wear long pants ;)

Is the "no white socks" thing a FIBA reqirement? South
of your border the "official" uniform when wearing shorts
is white socks.

To my knowledge I don't believe there is an "official" uniform that includes shorts. Most guys around here when wearing shorts wear black shorts, black socks, and black shoes.

[Edited by JeffRef on Jun 29th, 2001 at 02:55 PM]

Well, I guess it varies from area to area. I've never been to a camp that required long pants. In fact, the one or two guys who did wear long pants were even looked down upon to some extent.

White socks? Is there another color? Anytime we wear shorts, we wear white ankle socks.

Same here, Tony.

I have always heard (and done) the opposite. I heard an evaluator tell a guy to "lose your black socks in the summer." Everyone around me wears white.

My feelings exactly.

I agree. Long pants after April are dorky (to borrow a
term from my kids).

A lot of us dorks are still wearing quilted Carhartt bibs in April. :(

Usually the second question I ask when approached to do any league outside the regular season whether it is fall, spring or summer is: "full dress, or can we wear shorts." If we can wear shorts, I then ask if they require black sox and/or shoes. If not, I wear black shorts with white sox and shoes. The reason is that I can find white sox with extremely thick, cushioney soles, but I haven't been able to find black ones that way.

BTW - the first question isn't how much we get paid. It's whether or not we get free pop.:)

My philosophy...if you look good in shorts and can wear them...wear em' :)

I do

...just don't wear white socks, please! :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
What's wrong with white socks??
That's what we're supposed to wear with shorts. I actually wear knee socks...not for looks but because they help prevent my shin splints.

I don't mind being called Juulie, it's my name!

I was required to wear long pants to that particular camp. The reasons are a long story which I won't go into.

I always wear shorts if allowed, and prefer either white socks and white shoes or black socks and black shoes. The white socks and back shooes thing... well it hurts, but I do it if required (which I have been).

I think that black socks and shoes with shorts looks "dorky."

If I wear shorts, I always wear white socks. I think it is harder for someone to look athletic with black socks and shoes.

Just MO.

In my association, we wear black shorts and white socks (ankle high or crew(?) heighth for all summer rec games. I don't think I have ever seen an official wear knee high white socks. If it is AAU, we wear long pants. We were directed to not wear black socks (don't know why). We were also told to make sure your shorts are black -- not faded black that is almost grey! We were also told "No spandex", thank God! Some officials do wear compression shorts under their regular shorts.

I completely agree. Black socks do not look the least bit athletic. It looks like you changed from your suit and forgot to change the socks.

I just can't get past the brainwashing I was subjected to when I was a teenager -- at my school, and in most of Portland, I think -- white socks were the ultimate fashion no-no. In fact, I'm not sure they were even sold in Portland. We mostly wore tennis shoes (as they were called then) with no socks. Even the most nerdy kids didn't wear white socks. It didn't even occur to anyone as an option

For those of us with foot problems, white socks with shorts is a necessity. That's because it has been almost impossible to find black socks with extra, extra, extra cushioney soles. And, of course, if you wear white socks, you must wear white shoes (I think the fashion police dictate that).

However, I went to a store that specializes in equipment for people with foot problems such as I have and found some great black socks that are extremely comfortable and cushioney. The drawback is that they are almost 10 bucks a pair. I bought one pair to try this coming weekend as I have a set of games where we can wear shorts. I'll try the black socks with my black shoes.

And - that concludes tonight's episode of "Referee Fashion News." :)

This thread reminded me of a guy in our zone who doesn't distinguish colors (notice I used the American spelling for colours...I'm getting the hang of this) very well.

He's always showing up for games with navy pants or mismatched socks.

...and you guys think black socks w/ black shoes look dorky, you should see this guy! He gets teased quite a bit.

Is he colour blind(Thought I would try the canuck version, but it feels too weird...like centre)?

I never take the wrong color pants, but you should see me standing in my closet in the spring. Navy shorts for Track, Black shorts for volleyball. I keep saying I will put a stronger bulb in there, but one of these days I am just going to right a B or N on the tags.

in Michigan
 

Tan pants for track in MI. Although I have seen Blue jeans.

Pants? Ick. At least the OHSAA was forward thinking enough to allow us to wear shorts. Pants can be worn but are supposed to be navy as well, although when the skies open you never know what you'll see. Long live Gore-tex.

He's been called "blind" on a few occassions but not because he can't distinguish colors!!! (I understand I'm the minority so I'll conform and spell it your way ;) ).