If someone is in the position to change a rule...

[BrentD22]

I understand all of the 3 second rules (yes I've read them). I also understand the rule about a valid shot being an air ball can be recovered by the shooter without it being a travel (self pass). The rule change that should take place is this.

Player A1 shoots the ball from the top of the key.

Player A2 was in the lane for 1 second before the shot.

Player A1's shot was an air ball.

Player A2 catches the shot and attempts to shoot. Only problem is that by the time that player A2 caught the air ball and attempted to shoot he was in the lane longer than 2.9 seconds.

Now my issue with this is that if you have a situation like this and team A shoots an air ball it's almost impossible and in most situations probably is impossible for that team to stay in the lane during the air ball and attempt to recover it.

If a valid shot goes up, but is an air ball the 3 seconds should reset just as if the ball hit the rim. Same if it only hits the backboard. The big part of this is that it MUST be ruled a valid shot.

[All_Heart]

The rule IS that 3 seconds resets on a shot attempt even if it doesn't hit the rim or backboard. Team control ends on a shot attempt and you cannot have 3 seconds without team control.

[BrentD22]

THANKS



Interesting...

I am a Basketball League Commish of a large Jr. NBA Jr. WNBA League (800 kids).

I've had this arguement come up several times this season from coaches and the ref that calls it (always the same person) says that the ball must hit the rim before the 3 resets.

I'm going to have to make a call about this!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BrentD22
THANKS



Interesting...

I am a Basketball League Commish of a large Jr. NBA Jr. WNBA League (800 kids).

I've had this arguement come up several times this season from coaches and the ref that calls it (always the same person) says that the ball must hit the rim before the 3 resets.

I'm going to have to make a call about this!

Maybe you should increse the fees you pay your refs? This might attract better quality officials to work your games.

[BrentD22]

We already loose money on our league and we charge a little bit more than we would like to.

A big issue is that we are not a rec. league. Recreation Leagues have the added benefit of being a city department and can get the gyms for free. We have to pay fees for some of the gyms for game days (Saturdays) and practice nights (week nights). In the past we had "regular" people officiating the games. Over the last 4 years (since me and my co-commish) took over there have been many improvements to the league. One of them was working out a deal with "rookie/newer" refs. The person that teaches the classes can use our meeting room and gym for practices. He can then charge the refs less for the course with an agreement that they only receive $25 per game for us (games don't last longer than 1 hour). We have a mix of veterans that just want to make some extra cash and at the same time mentor some of the younger refs. Often it seems that the younger refs make the mistakes (which is expected). The problem is that some of them don't like help with the rules.

The ref in question really doesn't know what she's doing. She never played the game of basketball, never watched it, and wanted to learn how to ref for "fun". She really struggles, but per our agreement the head honcho ref schedules all the refs. He makes the schedule for the whole regular season and doesn't change it. She's blown a lot of calls and many of them in key situations.


Thanks for the help and suggestions.

[rainmaker]

Brent --

your league can always have its own rules. Talk to your ref-assignor-person and see what else might be not working. Lots of leagues use "NFHS with changes" or "NCAA with changes". No reason your league can't do this. This isn't a rule I've ever heard of anyone wanting to change, but you certainly could.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BrentD22

The ref in question really doesn't know what she's doing. She never played the game of basketball, never watched it, and wanted to learn how to ref for "fun". She really struggles, but per our agreement the head honcho ref schedules all the refs. He makes the schedule for the whole regular season and doesn't change it. She's blown a lot of calls and many of them in key situations.


Thanks for the help and suggestions.

Might be the head honcho would appreciate getting updates & feedback on the progress, good & bad, of his students.

Have you called him to complain and/or compliment the newbies?

In any event it sounds like you've got a good deal going, if you're running this type of league & only have 1 official to complan about you're probably doing all right.

[BrentD22]

There is one rookie ref like I said.

The bigger issue is this veteran offical that is terrible. He has a reputation amoungst other refs, coaches, parents, admin, ect of being a terrible ref. He's a really nice guy, but he just causes so many issues.

- Every game he refs the score is lower by 20 combined points on avg. (we've done the math).
- Team fouls - bonus usually happens 10 mins into each half.
- Calls an extremely tight game, but then allows a player to bull charge another player with no call. Basiclly no consistancy.
- Has all sorts of odd rules that he calls that are just plain incorrect (other officals agree on this point).

Problem is that he's just a really nice guy so the assignor keeps giving him chances.

Oh well like you said 2 problems refs is pretty good concidering!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by BrentD22

A big issue is that we are not a rec. league. Recreation Leagues have the added benefit of being a city department and can get the gyms for free.

Says who? Our local rec league has been around for 25 years and is totally independent. We have an elected Board of Directors from the community and have to pay the school district for gym rental for both games and practices.

We run the league for 3rd thru 12th grade boys and girls, have both a recreational division and a competitive division (grades 5-8). Parents pay a flat fee for the rec division and a sliding fee for the competitive division depending on how many tournaments they choose to enter in addition to their regular league games.

We pay the refs decently, carry insurance and provide each rec player with a reversable jersey and each competitive player with a full uniform.

We also pay an accountant to do the books and checks, have a voice mail line (503.684.HOOP) and a website http://www.tibba.us

As our neighbor a few miles to the north likes to say it - "Just Do It".

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 09:34 PM]

[Rick Durkee]

Originally posted by All_Heart
The rule IS that 3 seconds resets on a shot attempt even if it doesn't hit the rim or backboard. Team control ends on a shot attempt and you cannot have 3 seconds without team control.

Just to add rule citations to go with All_Heart's answer, they are 9-7-1 and 4-12-3.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by All_Heart
The rule IS that 3 seconds resets on a shot attempt even if it doesn't hit the rim or backboard. Team control ends on a shot attempt and you cannot have 3 seconds without team control.

I wouldn't normally comment on this, but since our OP has a basic misunderstanding about the 3 second rule, let me add to this.

Three seconds is only a concern when the ball is in team control in the frontcourt. Team control ends on any shot. So when the shot goes up, the three second count ends (it is not reset, it ends completely). If the shooting team secures the rebound, then a brand new count begins. If there are several missed shots and attempted put-backs, players could be legally in the for long, long time.

[BrentD22]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Says who? Our local rec league has been around for 25 years and is totally independent. We have an elected Board of Directors from the community and have to pay the school district for gym rental for both games and practices.

We run the league for 3rd thru 12th grade boys and girls, have both a recreational division and a competitive division (grades 5-8). Parents pay a flat fee for the rec division and a sliding fee for the competitive division depending on how many tournaments they choose to enter in addition to their regular league games.

We pay the refs decently, carry insurance and provide each rec player with a reversable jersey and each competitive player with a full uniform.

We also pay an accountant to do the books and checks, have a voice mail line (503.684.HOOP) and a website http://www.tibba.us

As our neighbor a few miles to the north likes to say it - "Just Do It".

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 09:34 PM]

WOW is this a Rec. League that is part of the City or Towns Recreation Department or an idependant rec. league? There is a difference. In my experiances the city or town department usually doesn't have to pay the fees (at least in the towns that I've helped out). The refs always have to be paid. How much do you charge for your leagues? We charge $55 for the league and at the end we make $0 every year.

[BrentD22]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

I wouldn't normally comment on this, but since our OP has a basic misunderstanding about the 3 second rule, let me add to this.

Three seconds is only a concern when the ball is in team control in the frontcourt. Team control ends on any shot. So when the shot goes up, the three second count ends (it is not reset, it ends completely). If the shooting team secures the rebound, then a brand new count begins. If there are several missed shots and attempted put-backs, players could be legally in the for long, long time.

Obviously... I think you know what I ment by "reset"