Girls JV, 2 man. B pressing in the backcourt. I am Lead and Referee opposite table in backcourt just inside division line. At approx 5 in the ten second count B1 bats ball causing interrupted dribble which is heading OOB off B1. B2, falling OOB, redirects ball back in bounds. Trail's angle is bad and lined out on this play and thinks B2 batted the ball back in bounds and keeps his count going. A1 recovers the ball and is subsequently whistled for 10 second count. From my angle I observed B2 clearly control the ball and redirect it back onto the court as she was falling OOB. I remember thinking at the time that a TO call is OK. Is there any means by which I could have signaled Trail that the girl had control and to reset his backcourt count?

There's no official signal to do this. What you could do is after your partner makes the 10 second violation call, go over and tell him briefly what you saw and give him a chance to change his call if he wants to, based on the information you give him.

But be sure you saw what you think you saw. If you're not 110% positive, don't say a word. If you are sure, tell your P what you saw and let him make the decision. Tell him quietly so he can decide whether to make the call or not. If you tell him out loud, then you've backed him into a corner. Whether you're the R or not is irrelevant here, as you still cannot overrule him.

Did she "hold" it or "dribble" it? If not, she did not establish player control and therefore team control for A is still intact. Your partner's call was correct.

However, if you feel she "held" it and that's what you refer to as control, she did establish player control and team control switched. If that was the case, you should tell your partner what you saw and ask him to change his call.

As this OOB maneuver was unfolding I remember thinking if she calls TO, its ok, so I believed she established player control while redirecting the ball onto the court. So at his violation whistle and call, I tell my partner what I definetely saw and if he concurs we then give A a throw-in? New 10 second count? Goal is to get it right and it seems fair but it seems that we are changing a judgment call in his area.

Why are you, as the lead, at the division line when the trail is already at 5 in his BC count? :confused:

If he called a travel, are you going to come to him and tell him the player didn't have control the ball?

Mind your own business. Trust your partner.

So you're saying never to say a word, right?

In a press situation, where would you suggest he should be?

How does the elapsed time of the 10 sec count relate to your argument? That should have no bearing on the position that the lead takes in a press situation. Are you suggesting that, as a lead official in a press situation we need to keep track of the trail's count? The location of the players on the floor is what should dictate your position as lead during a press. Are you stating that you go to the endline after 5 seconds of a backcourt count has elapsed? I guess I am as confused as you are.

BktBallRef isn't saying anything close to what you're implying.

If the L is still in the backcourt, as the original post said, then the ball had better still be below the back FT line. That's very unlikely 5 seconds into a 10 second count. The lead moves up court on a press as the ball moves up the court. The lead isn't supposed to be ball-watching either. Even on a double-team of a dribbler, there's 7 other players out there for the lead to keep an eye on. If the play happened on the L's sideline, maybe the L can help out. If it happened on the T's sideline though, especially if it's below the FT line extended, which is the way that it should be if the L is still in the backcourt, then the trail has the call all the way. And the L shouldn't be watching across the floor and deep to second-guess that call either.

It's the trail's call. Trust his judgement. This isn't an OOB call on a tipped ball or anything like that. It's a straight judgement call-- player control vs. no player control. Leave the judgement up to the official responsible for using that judgement.

I disagree 110%.

The L should move back as far as the players dicate. Period.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the L being just below the division line as the original play was written.

One long pass and he's ****ed.

I'd bet a game few that all 10 players were not in the BC 5 seconds into the count. If the L is 15-20 feet into the FC, he's in a more advantageous position.

If he was behind all the players that long pass would be an easy OOB call.

Again, there is nothing the OP wrote that even hints that he was positioned incorrectly. Or correctly for that matter.

I've only stepped up once as lead on a call in the back court. Ball had come down to the free throw line on my side. A1 throws the ball towards A2 about 3 feet above the three point line at the top. The ball is tipped by
B1 just as A1 lets it fly and it ends up being recovered by A2 in the BC. Partner had his attention temporarily on a coach, so I'd expanded my area briefly to cover. Partner calls BC. Crowd goes crazy, and I start to walk towards him and he asks me if it was tipped. I told him it was, and he changed his call to an IW and we moved on giving the ball back to A.
I only saw it because of an extraordinary circumstance, and I only helped because he asked.

As lead in the play described, it would have to be on my sideline near the division line for me to even consider interfering. And then, I'd have to be 110% sure.

"Never?" That's pretty strong, but probably slightly closer to the mark than "rarely."

It isn't where the ball is, but where the players are. If there are 7 or 8 players in the backcourt, which isn't uncommon, L being around the division line, regardless of where the ball is, may not be out of line. Besides, that sideline is the lead's call and while he may be moving down toward the baseline, he has to be aware of what's going on if there's a pass over to that area.

I have seen traps where the ball is as far out as halfway between the free throw line and old 28 foot line, and there are still at least 6 players in the backcourt or right around the division line. This will typically happen in sub-varsity games or in games where the offense doesn't know how to be a full press or full trap. Keeping a half court distance relative to your partner is the general rule, but there are exceptions.

One long pass to who? I stated that the lead position is dictated by the location of the players on the floor. If there are players in the frontcourt then a lead should be at their level or farther into the frontcourt. If there are no players in the frontcourt during the press situation, then the lead should be positioned to officiate the PLAYERS ON THE FLOOR.

Backcourt officiating during a press is difficult at best and the trail official in that situation is presented with more straight-line looks than anywhere else on the floor. As you probabally know the press situation in a two man often requires alot of help from the lead official. Cover your area as a lead in that situation, but be aware of the trail being straight-lined and totally losing his look at the action on ball.

And you are right, if there are players in position to receive a long outlet pass you need to have the position and the wheels to be able to cover that. But there could also be a steal and a quick shot near the three point arc in the backcourt opposite of the trail that needs to be judged, or a shorter pass and a possible backcourt violation with no official on the division line. The point is, all we can do is be in the best possible position to officiate the players on the floor. We just don't have to run as much in three whistle.

I disagree 120%

The L should move back as the ball dictates. Period.

The original play doesn't say exactly where the ball was. If the ball is still within 15 feet of the end line, I don't have a problem with the lead being just inside center. If the ball is coming out past the FT line extended though, the L should be moving his butt back with the ball. You can still get a good view on your area of responsiblity and the other players off-ball.

What's your take on the L getting such a great look on an OOB save on the far side of the court on this play, Slappy? You down with that too?

If there are no players in the frontcourt during the press situation, then <font color = red>the lead should be positioned to officiate the PLAYERS ON THE FLOOR</font>.

Backcourt officiating during a press is difficult at best and the trail official in that situation is presented with more straight-line looks than anywhere else on the floor. As you probabally know the press situation in a two man often requires alot of help from the lead official. <font color = red>Cover your area as a lead in that situation, but be aware of the trail being straight-lined and totally losing his look at the action on ball</font>.

[/B][/QUOTE]Now you got me confused. Are you saying that the L should watch the players on the floor <b>and</b> the on-ball action?

If so, you don't need a trail.

You know this is 130% wrong. Period.

If the ball is at the FT line in the BC & 6 players are at the FT line in the FC where should the L be again? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

The L doesn't have the other sideline.

If you mean the FC endline then if the L's positioned with the players he'll see who touched the ball last before it goes OOB. If someone put of his area touched it last his partner can help.

Not sure why this is hard to understand...trick question maybe?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

The L doesn't have the other sideline.

If you mean the FC endline then if the L's positioned with the players he'll see who touched the ball last before it goes OOB. If someone put of his area touched it last his partner can help.

Not sure why this is hard to understand...trick question maybe? [/B][/QUOTE]Nope, it's not a trick question.

In the original post of this thread, the L is second-guessing the T as to whether there was possession vs. a tapback by a player saving a ball from going OOB. Now..... if the play came across court towards the L and the OOB save was on his sideline, I can see the L having a view on that play and being able to offer an opinion whether the save was made with player control or not. However.... if the play was on the other side of the court.....50 feet across the court in front of the T.....and the OOB save was on that FAR sideline, do you agree with the L getting such a great look at the play that he can second-guess his partner's judgment whether the savee had player control or not? Should he be seeing that save over there <b>at all</b>?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 19th, 2006 at 07:10 PM]

Could somebody please draw me a nice picture?

Now you got me confused. Are you saying that the L should watch the players on the floor <b>and</b> the on-ball action?

If so, you don't need a trail. [/B][/QUOTE]

No, I am not suggesting one-man officiating. I was simply stating that the reason the lead works the press from the division line is to help out the trail official. I definitely believe that the lead needs to be AWARE of the location of the ball and needs to be AWARE whether or not the trail official needs help (straight-lined). This does not mean that the lead needs to be totally focused on the ball and the players in his area. This can be acheived via short glances or even peripheral vision. I was simply pointing out that the trail has a tough time maintaining a good visual angle in a press situation (we've all been there) and sometimes temporarily loses sight of the ball in a situation where there is alot of action focused on the ball. If the ball is on the lead side of the possesion players' body and the trail is obviously straight-lined, help him out until the ball status changes or he gets into better position. We are not talking about a great deal of time here.

Are you saying that you never help your trail official out in a press situation?
(see, now that comment was totally un-necessary on my part, kind of like your last comment in your post. It is truly amazing what a little anonymity will do to a guy. In fact the negativisim by the poster I originally responded to is the only reason I ever posted in the first place. It would be nice if these boards could actually be a place to get some good info that would help people become better officials. If I were a first year guy, and read this thread, I would be too intimidated to post a situation in an attempt to get some feedback that might actually help. Try to dial it down a notch boys and girls, and that includes me.)

This does not mean that the lead needs to be totally focused on the ball and the players in his area. This can be acheived via short glances or even peripheral vision. I was simply pointing out that the trail has a tough time maintaining a good visual angle in a press situation (we've all been there) and sometimes temporarily loses sight of the ball in a situation where there is alot of action focused on the ball. If the ball is on the lead side of the possesion players' body and the trail is obviously straight-lined, help him out until the ball status changes or he gets into better position.

Are you saying that you never help your trail official out in a press situation?
[/B][/QUOTE]Actually, that's a good comment and a fair question. The answer depends on what you call "helping your partner out".

The L is back there around center someplace to help his partner out on a press. But.... I'm saying that the L has his own responsibilities on the press. And imo those responsibilities don't include watching the ball on the other side of the court- which you seem to be advocating. If the L is watching a save that occurs on the OOB side of the far sideline on the other side of the court- and he's watching that save close enough, using a short glance or peripheral vision, to make a completely accurate and 100% sure judgment that player control was established on the save, well, what <b>does</b> he need the trail for? :) He's obviously got everything under control all by himself.

Please note that "imo" above. Iow, we just disagree. No need for you to to get upset because of that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Badger05 Quote: Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Are you saying that you never help your trail official out in a press situation? Actually, that's a good comment and a fair question. The answer depends on what you call "helping your partner out". The L is back there around center someplace to help his partner out on a press. But.... I'm saying that the L has his own responsibilities on the press. And imo those responsibilities don't include watching the ball on the other side of the court- which you seem to be advocating. If the L is watching a save that occurs on the OOB side of the far sideline on the other side of the court- and he's watching that save close enough, using a short glance or peripheral vision, to make a completely accurate and 100% sure judgment that player control was established on the save, well, what <b>does</b> he need the trail for? :) He's obviously got everything under control all by himself. Please note that "imo" above. Iow, we just disagree. No need for you to to get upset because of that.

In the situation I originally posted, the competition that caused the interrupted dribble and the save occurred at BC FT line extended and OF COURSE was on my line. the majority of the players were in backcourt. The discussion of Lead positioning on press was interesting and spirited but didn't mention the athleticism of the competitors as a factor. The facts of athleticism are such that lead can recover from three feet on the BC side of the division line on a long baseball pass from the BC FT line thrown by a JV girl. (Please no firestorm of sexist criticism). I was comfortable where I was. A page ago, a veteran poster or two said that the 10 second violation should be negated and ball awarded back to A because of the definite change of possession that Trail was unable to see. I don't see that reversal supported by rule but if such a reversal is ok does A get a new ten second count on the subsequent throw in?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by missinglink

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Quote: Originally posted by Badger05 Quote: Originally posted by Jurassic Referee Are you saying that you never help your trail official out in a press situation? Actually, that's a good comment and a fair question. The answer depends on what you call "helping your partner out". The L is back there around center someplace to help his partner out on a press. But.... I'm saying that the L has his own responsibilities on the press. And imo those responsibilities don't include watching the ball on the other side of the court- which you seem to be advocating. If the L is watching a save that occurs on the OOB side of the far sideline on the other side of the court- and he's watching that save close enough, using a short glance or peripheral vision, to make a completely accurate and 100% sure judgment that player control was established on the save, well, what <b>does</b> he need the trail for? :) He's obviously got everything under control all by himself. Please note that "imo" above. Iow, we just disagree. No need for you to to get upset because of that. In the situation I originally posted, the competition that caused the interrupted dribble and the save occurred at BC FT line extended and OF COURSE was on my line. the majority of the players were in backcourt. The discussion of Lead positioning on press was interesting and spirited but didn't mention the athleticism of the competitors as a factor. The facts of athleticism are such that lead can recover from three feet on the BC side of the division line on a long baseball pass from the BC FT line thrown by a JV girl. (Please no firestorm of sexist criticism). I was comfortable where I was. A page ago, a veteran poster or two said that the 10 second violation should be negated and ball awarded back to A because of the definite change of possession that Trail was unable to see. I don't see that reversal supported by rule but if such a reversal is ok does A get a new ten second count on the subsequent throw in?

I just read through this thread for the first time and was wondering "when did the OP say that the ball went out on the sideline opposite?"

Since the ball went out on the OP's sideline, he needs to step up and provide additional information to the trail. Even if the OP was at the far free-throw line, he can see possession of B and the throw back onto the court.

Too many people act as if they simply "can't see" anything out of their primary area, when I know that it simply isn't the case. We have peripheral vision, after all. In 2-person in a press situation, the L has to be prepared to help out. Period. Don't call something right in the face of the trail, of course, but this post isn't anything like that.

[/B][/QUOTE]
If the L is still in the backcourt, as the original post said, then the ball had better still be below the back FT line. That's very unlikely 5 seconds into a 10 second count. The lead moves up court on a press as the ball moves up the court. The lead isn't supposed to be ball-watching either. Even on a double-team of a dribbler, there's 7 other players out there for the lead to keep an eye on. <font color = red</font>If the play happened on the L's sideline, maybe the L can help out.</font> If it happened on the T's sideline though, especially if it's below the FT line extended, which is the way that it should be if the L is still in the backcourt, then the trail has the call all the way. And the L shouldn't be watching across the floor and deep to second-guess that call either.

[/B][/QUOTE]Fyi, missinglink and Rich.....

To stop any confusion, here's my <b>original</b> post above. Note the statement "If the play happened <b>on the L's sideline</b>, maybe the L can help out". Any statements that I have made since then related <b>ONLY</b> to a save occuring on the <b>opposite</b> side line.

It seems that both of you might have missed this.

If the L is still in the backcourt, as the original post said, then the ball had better still be below the back FT line. That's very unlikely 5 seconds into a 10 second count. The lead moves up court on a press as the ball moves up the court. The lead isn't supposed to be ball-watching either. Even on a double-team of a dribbler, there's 7 other players out there for the lead to keep an eye on. <font color = red</font>If the play happened on the L's sideline, maybe the L can help out.</font> If it happened on the T's sideline though, especially if it's below the FT line extended, which is the way that it should be if the L is still in the backcourt, then the trail has the call all the way. And the L shouldn't be watching across the floor and deep to second-guess that call either.

[/B][/QUOTE]Fyi, missinglink and Rich.....

To stop any confusion, here's my <b>original</b> post above. Note the statement "If the play happened <b>on the L's sideline</b>, maybe the L can help out". Any statements that I have made since then related <b>ONLY</b> to a save occuring on the <b>opposite</b> side line.

It seems that both of you might have missed this. [/B][/QUOTE]

And all this time I thought we were arguing about where the L should be standing.

:shrug:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
Well, that too.....

Now that we know where the ball was...i.e.- at the back court FT line extended on the L's side, as per missinglink, we now know:
1) The ball was about 19 feet from the end line and the play is still the T's responsibility.
2) The T probably came across the court to follow the play...so if he came half-way and was straight-lined as suggested, he would be about 25 feet from the save.
3) The L was inside the center line. The center line is 42 feet from the end line. Therefore, if the lead was a step inside center-- i.e. say about 3 feet-- the L would be 39'-19'= 20 feet from the save.

By golly, the L <b>is</b> closer to this play than the trail.

Now....some might say that's <b>too</b> close......

What say you, DanO? Do you get that close to help out on a press when the play is coming to you?

PS- to whom it may concern- The DanO was used because (a) it pisses Dan off, and (b) it is getting late in the day and I haven't pissed Dan off today yet. As far as I know. I think.

12:45pm is late in the day?

Uh-oh!

My point, with which Dan and JR are having plenty of fun, is that if you wait to be 110% sure of the call, then you will never make the call; b/c it's impossible to be 110% sure. It's hyperbole and silly. Just say you're sure.

"To whom", young <s>grasshopper</s> badger.

Welcome to the forum, from your friendly neighborhood Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: And all this time I thought we were arguing about where the L should be standing.

Well, now that we have more details, I'm gonna back off a little and disagree only 108% with you.

I still have no real problem with where the L was standing in a 2 man game based on what we know. Sometimes as L on transition I'll work as C when the ball's at about midcourt before going all the way down to the endline.

Anything else?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Feb 20th, 2006 at 02:30 PM]