Am I off base here ?

Chess Ref · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 12:48am

In our area it the refs are just not calling T's for being out of the box. I watch alot of HS BB. Girls, Boys, Frosh,JV, and VArsity. Coaches wander ALL over the place. So we have a six foot coaching box. Tonight ball bounces off kids hands. I get ready to put ball in play on endline and their the coach is yelling at me. I mean right in front of my face. I T'eed him up for being out of the box. I thought it was a no brainer. The V refs following me thought I should have tried to work with him on that. I am thinking work with on what, POE is coaching box, he is out of the box in my face yelling at me. I am a little frustrated with not only the bad behavior of the coaches but the reluctance of officials to address this according to the rule book.

As a PS this coach that got really personal towards me but my partner, a compentent ref, talked me out of tossing him. He also did the scream in my ear thing for a 30 second time out. My assignor told me to T the coaches up for box issues but I do seem to be by my lonesome self on this. I only have two more games so it may be a good stopping point for me and my season.

So howw many of you actually would have thrown a T in this SITCH ?

Feedback appreciated.....

blindzebra · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 12:54am

You work with a coach that is out of his/her box coaching you whack a coach that is out of their box screaming about a call.

I'm guessing you work in an area where coaches have a lot of input in official's schedules and post season assignments.

rainmaker · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 01:00am

If the coach is out of the box, on the end line, yelling at you, WHACK him!! If any ref questions this, go to the assignor, and say, "It's a POE about the coaching box this year, right?" "Yup" "Okay, and you've been preaching it at every meeting, right?" "Yup" "So what should I do when so-and-so is on the endline yelling at me about a call?" And then do whatever he says. And think about voting for a different commissioner next year.

Back In The Saddle · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 01:13am

The coach made that one real easy. Whack-o-rama.

NICK · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 02:28am

A coach yelling at me does not have to be out of his coaching box to get a technical.

bebanovich · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 02:37am

Ah, the dance of the coaches box. As a coach, it's become one of my favorite pregame moments. Invariably on of the officials will come over to talk about the box. Often, it will not be clearly marked, but he/she will point at it, we will both stare at the floor, often we will walk around it, gesture at it, I will nod, sometimes we will count a few chairs, occassionally he/she will grant an extension of a foot or two or explain his/her personal philosophy about the box. If I don't have any clarifying questions, we are off and running. There is nothing insincere in this exchange - I mean to stay in the box and I would if it were ever mentioned again - but damned if I ever really know where I am unless I think I need to.

I tend to pace and I try to stay out of my bench players way or they say things like, "coach I didn't come here to look at your flat, white booty." If I question a call, I tend to look for my empty chair and stand in front of it. If I ever get a little heated - which doesn't seem to happen much anymore (I don't know if it's the improved officiating or the approaching birth of our first child) - I just sit in the first open seat I can find a la musical chairs.

I don't think I could pass a post-game quiz on the location of the coaching box but as long as I'm just cheering and coaching, no one seems to want to take time to make an issue of it.

WooPigSooie · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 04:27am

This all boils down to the fact that no official wants to be the petty power freak to whack a coach for standing an inch outside the box.

Is there a time to whack a coach for standing outside the box?- ABSOLUTELY. The scenario described is one of them.

Is there a time to let it go even though the box is being violated? ABSOLUTELY.

In the back of my mind before I take to court, I tell myself to call a good game WHILE not being a game changer. Should be a goal of all referees. Calling a T in a close game on a coach outside the box is not helping me meet my goal, in my opinion. Of course, there are exceptions. If the coach is running down to the baseline to make sure his players understand what to do on an inbounds play or something of that nature would warrant a T, but if he or she is slightly out of the box not hurting a soul, let it go.

If a given official is not in an association that has a great deal of power in scheduling, it is just bad business on that official's part to call T's in petty situations. Good luck getting anymore games with that particular school.

The T that was given to the coach in the scenario described was absolutely a good call. But you have to use a little common sense with the coaches box. I hate the rule because it puts officials in a tight spot. We are suppose to go by the book, but sometimes going by the book can lead to a petty, game altering call.

bebanovich · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 05:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by WooPigSooie
The T that was given to the coach in the scenario described was absolutely a good call. But you have to use a little common sense with the coaches box. I hate the rule because it puts officials in a tight spot. We are suppose to go by the book, but sometimes going by the book can lead to a petty, game altering call.

On the other hand, it must be nice to have it in the arsenal when needed. I hope no one takes this the wrong way but one of my Dad's favorite sayings has always been, "rules are for when your brain gives out." Relevant to sports and this topic only because it's tricky to write a rule which is, by its nature, prescriptive and unwavering to deal with situations that might be best left up to professional judgement.

Nevadaref · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 06:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by Chess Ref
I am a little frustrated with not only the bad behavior of the coaches but the reluctance of officials to address this according to the rule book.

I agree.

Chess Ref · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 07:08am

Our scheduling is pretty much a computer based system. Playoff refs are handpicked by the assignor , who gets a list from our local association and coaches have no input. My personal SITCH is I work the lower levels. I am on the Frosh/JV circuit.

My concern is primarily these lower levels cause I don't see the V coaches acting this badly. Not saying it doesn't happen at V level, just not as prevalent.

I had a rant and rave on the other site about these animals, I mean these role models, I mean coaches. I have had it with adults acting like this. I hear about working on talking with the coaches. Great I need to take some early childhood development classes to figure out how to deal with these ,ahem,adults. I am More then willing to work with them but sometimes there is not too much to work with.

I realize it's the end of the season and everybody's tired but I am making a commitment to myself to set the bar and sticking to it. No more wondering if the coach will behave in an appropriate manner. They will or they will go to the parking lot. If it impacts my ability to move up in the level of games I work so be it, I will stay at this level and just terrorize the Frsoh/JV coaches. LOL.

Back In The Saddle · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 10:24am

I'm with ChessRef, perhaps it's just something about this time of year. At the start of the season there was all this hoopla about how if we don't start enforcing the box:

a) We won't get any state tournament games
b) The state and/or the Fed may remove the coaches box

Well guess what? There was never any danger of me getting any tournament games. So the worst that could happen to me personally if I don't worry about enforcing the box is that coaches all across the state, or even all across America may have to go back to sitting the entire game.

Hmmmm, remind me again why I'm supposed to care?

TriggerMN · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 11:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by bebanovich
Ah, the dance of the coaches box. As a coach, it's become one of my favorite pregame moments. Invariably on of the officials will come over to talk about the box. Often, it will not be clearly marked, but he/she will point at it, we will both stare at the floor, often we will walk around it, gesture at it, I will nod, sometimes we will count a few chairs, occassionally he/she will grant an extension of a foot or two or explain his/her personal philosophy about the box. If I don't have any clarifying questions, we are off and running. There is nothing insincere in this exchange - I mean to stay in the box and I would if it were ever mentioned again - but damned if I ever really know where I am unless I think I need to.

I tend to pace and I try to stay out of my bench players way or they say things like, "coach I didn't come here to look at your flat, white booty." If I question a call, I tend to look for my empty chair and stand in front of it. If I ever get a little heated - which doesn't seem to happen much anymore (I don't know if it's the improved officiating or the approaching birth of our first child) - I just sit in the first open seat I can find a la musical chairs.

I don't think I could pass a post-game quiz on the location of the coaching box but as long as I'm just cheering and coaching, no one seems to want to take time to make an issue of it.

...and this is why it is imperative to mark the coaching box before your pregame. Why officials don't do this, I have no idea.

TimTaylor · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 12:28pm

I agree with what TriggerMN said, in fact we are instructed by our assigner not to start the game unless the coaching boxes are clearly marked.

As far as being out of the box, our instructions from the State Assn. are crystal clear - 1st violation warning, 2nd is a T. The implied threat was that if abuse of the coaching box doesn't get cleared up they're going to take it away.

What Nick said is correct - the coaching box is for coaching, not yelling at the officials. If his/her behavior warrants it, I'll assess the T no matter where the coach is.

blindzebra · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 01:14pm

If it's not down, they sit.

I had a game a couple of years ago and we did not have boxes. I went over to the home coach...who was also the AD...and said that we needed to have the boxes put down.

He went to the end of the bench, came back and handed ME a roll of tape. I turned around and headed toward the visitor's bench. Confused he asked where I was going, and I said, "To give this tape to the other coach so HE can mark his box, that HE WILL get to use tonight."

The coach then said, "Let me have that and just where do those things go again?"

Chess Ref · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 16, 2006, 01:15pm

i don't want the call to be a game changer. I also am not on a power trip. I don't think my expectations are wholly unreasonable. In the truest sense of the rules we could by the book T them up for trying to influence us. I am not looking for that particular foul but if it's there I am taking it.

I expect them to act appropriately and if they CHOSE not to I will deal with it in accordance with the rulebook.

I ALWAYS mark my coaching box. I have had complaints about putting tape on their precious floor and thanks to this board I had the reply . "NO marked box nobody stands" Low and behold the tape wasn't that much of an issue anymore.

I feel like a big boulder has been lifted off my shoulders now that I am finding my own standards about coaches.