No man's Land

Brian Watson

From a philosophical standpoint, how much latitude do you guys give players that go too far under the basket and enter what I call the demilitarized zone. You know the 2-3 foot area where they are under and behind the basket with really no place to go so they jump into the defenders or try some ridiculous HORSE shot to try and get it near the hoop. For example - had a kid jump into two defenders trying a stupid shot and hoping for a foul and he and his coach went nuts when I hit him with the PC. I feel if you get caught down there I am not going to bail your rump out, but that is just my feeling. I don't necessarily think 3 seconds is the right call either, because what advantage is he gaining? How do you guys handle it or do you see it very often?

BigDave

Originally posted by Brian Watson
For example - had a kid jump into two defenders trying a stupid shot and hoping for a foul and he and his coach went nuts when I hit him with the PC.

I agree with you on this example. As long as the defenders go straight up, I would have PC also.

Tim Roden

PC as well. But in real life I have called traveling more often down there. The kid shuffles his feet trying to get out from under the basket.

CoachB

One that I frequently see is a desperation heave at the end of a quarter where the offense bowls over the defender on the attempt. Of course the offense is looking to the ref for a foul call. My opinion is that the shot is at the buzzer so the play is dead and there is no foul. Back in the days when I was a ref I called an offensive/player control foul during a Men's Rec League game. The offensive player heaved a shot with 3-4 seconds left and bowled over the defender. Both of them were on the floor a second or so before the buzzer. The offensive guy was not too happy but the defender was standing at half court with both hands up and took it squarely in the chest.

bob jenkins

Originally posted by Brian Watson
From a philosophical standpoint, how much latitude do you guys give players that go too far under the basket and enter what I call the demilitarized zone. You know the 2-3 foot area where they are under and behind the basket with really no place to go so they jump into the defenders or try some ridiculous HORSE shot to try and get it near the hoop. For example - had a kid jump into two defenders trying a stupid shot and hoping for a foul and he and his coach went nuts when I hit him with the PC. I feel if you get caught down there I am not going to bail your rump out, but that is just my feeling. I don't necessarily think 3 seconds is the right call either, because what advantage is he gaining? How do you guys handle it or do you see it very often?

I generally have a no-call on this.

Brian Watson

I generally have a no-call on this. [/B]

OK, why?

I think this is one of those things where everyone has a different approach. I am looking for differing opionins.

Gary Brendemuehl

Why should location on the court affect the call. If it's a PC 15' from the basket shouldn't it be a PC under/behind the basket?

WI REF

I had this situation happen this past season doing some varsity ball. My feeling is that if the Offense takes the ball into 'no mans land' then he is in trouble. He had better keep going or make a pass. I agree that I'm not going to give him the foul for trying to get back into a place where he can shoot. If the defense remains 'straight up' then it's a PC, no questions asked. If the defense causes the contact by leaning or jumping towards the offense, then he goes to the line for shots. It's like our state association says that a defensive player can't cause a PC while that far under the basket. Most players ans some coaches don't understand that rule. Surprising enough when this happened to me, neither player or coach had much to say. Sometimes it's in the way that you make (sell) the call that helps too.

JRutledge

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl
Why should location on the court affect the call. If it's a PC 15' from the basket shouldn't it be a PC under/behind the basket?

But I very seldom see a player that deserves a PC when they are that far under the basket. Usually they are just moving in to cause contact, and better yet they flop to make it seem like they got murdered under the basket.

I do not take the attitude that you can never have a PC foul under the basket, but the defenders are just trying to cause some contact. I think the rule is contradictory to say on one hand on a dunk you can hang on the rim because someone is underneath them, but if they release the rim and make contact, they should be called for a PC foul. That does not make sense to me at least.

Peace

rockyroad

I would disagree with that last post...I have seen many times when a player is way under the basket (or behind the board) and jumps back into the defensive player hoping for a call to go their way...I won't give them that call...I might not call a PC unless they really smash somebody, but I will call a travel or 3-seconds or something...why punish good defense?

mick

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I generally have a no-call on this.

Bob,
I generally agree with "got nothin'".
What usually happens is:

• The player with the ball doesn't have much momentum to cause noticeable displacement,
• the defenders, knowing the opponent is in a bad position, are usually vertical
• the player with the ball is going to do something outa control,
• the shooter will start whining.

Sometimes I call a PC, but I am dang sure when it happens, cuz it is less than popular.
If the defender twitches his wrists, I gotta call him.😉

mick

Mark Padgett

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl
Why should location on the court affect the call. If it's a PC 15' from the basket shouldn't it be a PC under/behind the basket?

I'm with you Gary. My experience is that partners who bail out on this call are the same ones who won't call a foul in the last two minutes unless reconstructive surgery is involved.

I disagree with both philosophies and have stated so many times.

A foul is a foul is a foul - at any time in the game and any place on the court. The same goes for a non-call.

The only exception I have ever used is when I feel the fouler may gain an advantage by committing the foul (like on a breakaway, as we have discussed before). Of course, sometimes this qualifies as an intentional foul, and I will call it because the penalty nullifies the advantage gained.

JRutledge

Well, when I find a player (usually happens in boy's games) is actually in position and did not just jump in the way after the ball handler was in the air, then maybe I will call a PC foul. But usually the defender is very late, because standing there does nothing for his chances of defending the play that is coming at him or her. And better than that, they flop and never take real contact in the first place. And once you basically let them realize that you are not calling that crap, then they stop.

You are correct, a foul is a foul is a foul. But even if a player flops (and they usually almost every time) under the basket just like they do up top, I am going to not call a foul just the same.

Peace

rainmaker

Originally posted by JRutledge
But even if a player flops (and they usually almost every time) under the basket just like they do up top, I am going to not call a foul just the same.

I did a game this week with a very consistent flopp-er and a whining coach to back him up. Well, finally, the opponent thought he had it all figured out and gave him a good charge. I called that one. It was easy: The look of surprise on the ex-flopp-er's face told the whole story! And he didn't flop the rest of the game, although he did take one more really aggressive charge. Who learned what lesson in this game? I'm still not sure....

As far as the too-far-under the basket, I watch closely for travelling -- it's almost a certainty, unless there's a quick pass out to the corner. Of course, I'm talking lower levels here. I haven't done enough varsity yet to make any generalizations.

JeffRef

I like the no call if it's body to body contact and the defender(s) is/are straight up. A coach knows when his player is in trouble. A good coach will understand the no call and probably give his a player a look like "what are doing taking the ball that deep???. This scenario must be talked about in every pre-game. It has to be called consistently the entire game or the coaches will be all over you!

Gary Brendemuehl

Originally posted by WI REF
It's like our state association says that a defensive player can't cause a PC while that far under the basket. Most players and some coaches don't understand that rule.

This issue is a sore spot with me. Here you have the state association making up a rule that has no support in the rule or case books.

Legal defense is legal anywhere on the court. If the offensive player driving to the basket crashes into a defender who is right under the basket and knocks the defender on his backside, then the defender has taken a position which required the offensive to change his shot to avoid the foul.

I hope I never see the stupid NBA semi-circle appear on HS courts.