Did anyone see that no call at the end of the game when the BC player went in for a layup? Sherman Williams clearly knocked him down. Is that a case of letting the player decided the outcome of the game or officials not wanting overtime? I would have surely made that call.

Duke was playing in this game right? No comment. ;)

Smile
 

I figured that was the case.

Watching live from the midcourt camera, I too was sure it was a foul. But when they showed the replay from the endline camera, it sure looked to me like the defender swiped and missed. There was body contact down low, but I don't know who initiated it.

I did not see this play. I have no idea if the call was right or wrong. I will tell you that just recently the NCAA put out a bulletin where they showed many plays like this where contact took place and the shooter hits the floor. There were about 3 examples in the bulletin where they showed situations where the defenders were called for fouls and they were considered incorrect. So just because the shooter hit the floor is not the issue. I think as officials we are too quick to call things on the airborne defender and this might have been the case where the defender did everything right and nothing was properly called.

I also do not think it is fair to accuse the officials of being "Duke Lovers" because this call was not made. I have seen many possible calls at very critical times where officials could have called something to favor Duke and no call was made. Just look at some of the post season games the last few years and that should tell you a lot.

Peace

Great Responce!
 

Thanks for your comments Rut,

I dont think anyone is accusing officials of be on way or the other, but it is obvious that the no call we an easy out so none of the officials would have to explain it to the Duke coach. From looking at the play from above, the BC player was clearly knocked down. That play would have easily put the game in overtime and a possible Duke loss. I would have loved to been a fly on the wall in the post game for the officials.

Sheldon Williams is a great shot blocker. Officials seem to look over the body contact that he creats in attempting to block a shot. I saw the play live and on IR. It was an obvious foul. Why wasn't it called...I dunno. It was a 3 point Duke lead so it not as if the call would have beaten Duke. That was a call that isnt called a foul a lot on Williams. IMO you have to blow that one.

Re: Great Responce!
 

It is a call that has to be made. It was a 3 point lead, not 2. He missed the attempt so, even if they call the foul BC has to make 2 free throws and are still down one and have to foul. Would it have gone to OT, maybe maybe not. IMO Duke prob. goes to the other end and hit 2 free throws to push it back to a 3 point lead. Anyway you slice it that call would not have hurt Duke. It has to be made.

I agree with Chuck. The live view looked like a foul on Williams for sure but the replay caused some doubt. The defender was in the air but looked pretty much vertical with his body. The swipe at the ball was hard to tell if there was contact. Of course Dickie V was going nuts asking how that could not be a foul, primarily because the offensive player went to the floor.

Re: Great Responce!
 

Sherman Williams is a big guy. Just about anyone running into him is going to is going to get knocked down. I am just saying that it is possible there was no foul (I DID NOT SEE THE PLAY) and the officials got it right. I also think Chuck makes a great point as well that the original view was not a very good indicator of a foul or not. We must keep in mind that the officials were right there and had a better angle and we should give them the benefit of the doubt until we have further information to suggest otherwise.

Peace

I was just playing with my comments. I couldn't tell for sure from the replay, even though it looked like a foul.

By the way, I don't think Sherman Williams is all that big. Maybe TV does add size because he isn't all that big.

Now, I'm no Duke fan, I think eveyrone will agree. But that was not a foul.

Willimas jumped straight up, within his vertical plane. The shooter drove and jumped into him. Even when he attempted to block the shot with his right arm, he did not make contact.

There was no foul on the play. You guys that think this was a foul need to brush up on your rules of verticality.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 2nd, 2006 at 02:27 PM]

At first I wasn't sure, after replay I think it was a foul.

Tony is right about verticality but it looked to me like Williams was jumping forward (just slightly) and that's why it should have been a foul. Although I wish I had another look at it as I'm still not sure. Eitherway, what was Williams thinking, he should have just let him score two imo.

Push Off with Left Arm?
 

What about Williams' left arm? To me, the block was clean and the body contact didn't seem excessive. Williams appeared to push the shooter with his left hand. Any thoughts on this?

Re: Push Off with Left Arm?
 

I agree!

I thought Sherman Williams was a smallish running back for Alabama in the 1990's??? I think he wore #29...

Sherman Williams was lol. Everyone means Sheldon Williams. I have commented already but after reading some of the other posts started doubting what I saw. Espn.com has a clip that shows the highlights of the game and includes that play. I dont see what some of you see. Williams off hand is definetly on the offensive player, but reguardless of that, the lower body contact is severe. He took a swipe at the ball, but made no contact there. It's with his lower body where the foul occurs. College players dont miss that badly especially when their shot dont get blocked for no reason. Take a look at the clip. Watch the lower body contact. That is a must call in a game of that magnitude, especially since it was at BC!!

why don't you link us the clip? :D

I would have but my computer is acting up. Sorry. Go to espn.com and on the far right their is a media player. Load the Duke BC game.

What about the offensive player? He puts his off arm into SHELDON'S (not Sherman) armpit possibly causing his weight not to match Sheldon's and therefore knocking him to the ground. I think this was a good no call personally. I know one of the guys who worked the game. I should see him in the next week or two. I'll see what he says and get back to ya.

I just looked at the tape from the TV angle and I did not see this foul you are talking about. I see two players jumping forward and the smaller shooter fell to the floor. We cannot call fouls just because someone fell to the floor. Contact can also be severe and the proper call would be nothing (4-27). Now I would have to see the angle closer to the baseline to decide, but the defender is always allowed to jump up straight in their vertical space and be legal.

Once again, I stand by my statement I made before. We penalize the defense too as officials. The shooter is going hard to the basket and he runs into a brick wall. Falling should not be the reason we call a foul.

Peace

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=260320103

The play is about 2/3 of the way in. The replay during the live telecast showed a different view. I'm still having trouble seeing a defensive foul.

Re: Re: Push Off with Left Arm?
 

You fellas need to look at the replay. Williams' left arm doesn't touch the shooter at all.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=260320103

Falling should not be the reason that we call a foul. However, excessive lower body contact should be. Williams is 6 inches and 70 pounds heavier than the offensive player, of course even with minimual contact the offensive player would probably get the worst of the exchange. We cannot penalize Williams b/c he is stronger or bigger, but we cant ignore the fact that b/c he is bigger and stronger some contact from him could have the same effect as Reddick running you over. I watched the entire game. It had been a closely officiated game the whole way, evident by the number of fouls called (BC all-american Smith along with another BC player fouled out)and I feel that the last call was missed. Players indeed need to be away of Time and situation but also do the officials. I think it was a foul, some say its a good no call, I think everyone can agree that it was very questionable. That being the case, BC was down 3. Had the foul been called for the questionable contact, BC then is still down 1 with 14 seconds left. The officials havent "taken anything away." BC still has to convert. Had there been 3 seconds left and Duke up 1 then I say let the players decide the game and let it go!!

I guess he just fell backwards on under is own volition?

Re: Re: Re: Push Off with Left Arm?
 

From that angle it seems as though you are right. From the slow motion angle under the hoop it looks different. One thing that does need to be considered is the angle at which Williams is coming from. Imagine the same play with Williams trying to take a charge from that angle. You gonna give it to him? You want to talk about the principle of verticality, just watch it. He is moving into the shooter. He creates the contact. Had he been directly in front of the shooter then maybe, but the angle at which he took IMO there is no way that isn't a foul.

He fell backward because he ran into a bigger player who jumped straight up, and because he pushed off with his forearm. If you were to run into a brick wall, I could guarantee you would fall backwards.

You need to lose the fanboy approach and look at the play as an official.

The camera view from the top on the reply clearly show contact made by Sheldon. I am thinking like an official!

I will say this. If this is the kind of call you make when calling Boy's varsity games or Men's college games, you will struggle (not referring just to you, so do not take this personal). That is not at all a good quality varsity or college call on the Men's side. It might be a great girl's or women's call. Once again I saw the same play on the Men's NCAA bulletin video and they said this kind of call should not be called a foul on the defender.

Peace

First, since when do officials sit in the rafters or on top of the backboard to make a call.

Second, yes, there was contact. But contact alone is not a foul. This contact was created by the shooter, not by the defender who jumped straight up.

If you watched the clip you didnt see Williams jump straight up. He was moving into the offensive player. The rule of verticality was broken as well. We keep ignoring all the lower body contact. WHY?? Some say it was initated by the offensive player...what? Watch the clip again, Williams is moving into him when he jumps.

Dickie V hit the nail on the head after the game when he said that had that been any other player in the country it's a foul. Williams is known for his shot blocking ability and gets more leeway than most. Had that been Dockery, Reddick, McRoberts, or Paulis who did the exact same thing, I guarantee a foul would have been called. As for me looking at it from a fans point of view, your all wrong. I am a Duke fan, have been for 21 years. IMO the officials missed that call. Would Duke have won even if the call is made?? Probably.

Look at where the officials are, both the C and L are in good position, the L better to watch Williams, the C having the drive from his primary. I still agree no call was correct. If Williams indeed jumped into him wouldn't the contact be on the upper part of the body. Instead it is on the lower part as the offensive player tries to twist around the vertical defender.

As far as Dickie V, we all know how much he understands the rules and that he is always the officials' best friend.....right.

Sorry but I disagree. I guess we know why those guys are working D1 and you aren't. :)

If it would have been anybody but Sheldon, that kid is putting his nuts in all those other kids face while he his hanging on the rim. The kid had to alter his shot just to try to get it over Sheldon. Sheldon does nothing wrong except maybe bring his arm forward a little bit to block the shot and the kid thwarted any attempt of that happening by using his off arm to deflect it. This was a great play that looked ugly, because of the kid hitting the floor. This play was borderline at best, and if it is borderline, marginal, or inconclusive it is nothing and play on.

I'm 100% unbiased as the last time I rooted for BC (other than Doug Flutie)...Terry Driscoll was playing and Duke is well....D..D...DUKE.

I saw it 110 times after work on TIVO from the side and overhead. It was a great, great call. The swipe was clean, the shot was wild and any minor contact afterward was horsefeathers, BABY!

God.....I hope I outlive that idiot so I can enjoy College Basketball, again.

How can two teams play a physical, agressive, hard fought game...and have the final box score read:

Duke - 13 personal fouls
Boston College - 37 personal fouls

No matter who you support...if you watched that game last night and belive in fair play and impartial officiating...you have to be DISGUSTED about the way that game was officiated.

Actually it was 19 fouls by Duke and 27 by BC. You were looking at foul shots, not personal fouls Mr. Kleen. FWIW, I hate Duke, and grew up in New England, and at first thought it was an obvious foul. Looking at it a second time: Williams jumped within his vertical plane. Correct no call.

No we are only disgusted with fan boys that never pick up a rulebook or read anything about officiating.

Actually I saw a better angle on PTI and this was a great no call and looked just like another play I saw on the NCAA Men's Bulletin to pass on. You would have to be an official to know what that was. ;)

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Feb 2nd, 2006 at 09:20 PM]

Fan Boy?

I have actually played, coached and officiated games for nearly 30 years...but nice try.

But, good to see that this site is full of people who belive the refs are beyond questioning.

This quote from Al Skinner, BC Head Coach says it all.

“All I’m saying is that tonight, with the type of team we have, we only shoot 13 free throws and they shoot 37 is hard to believe. Craig Smith plays 35 minutes and it’s difficult to believe that he does not go to the free throw line once. There was as much done to him as their post players received.”

But then again, you watched the play on PTI...so you know more than those of us that watched the entire game.

Only fan boys quote coaches and use foul totals as an example of bad officiating. If you officiated anything worth is weight in salt you would know this happens a lot when two teams are playing different styles. I did see a good portion of the game and Duke was fast breaking and attacking the basket constantly. BC was trying to shot 3s and turning over the ball. Also we are not talking about just the game. We are talking about one call at the end of this game. The defender jumped straight up and the NCAA has told their officials in years of NCAA tapes to not penalize defenders that do nothing wrong.

I will challenge you to do this. There is a website the NCAA uses that anyone can register for without paying. The website is called Excel Sports Officiating. Anyone can register without paying. Anyone can look at all the NCAA Bulletins and see for yourself. The Bulletin that I am referring to is #3 under the Men's Basketball section. There are several plays to view that show examples that look identical to this play and the NCAA clearly wants nothing called.

Here is the link.

https://wwww.eofficials.com/pages/index.aspx

Peace

I saw some of the game; saw the play we are talking about and don't have a problem with the specific call or officiating during the game.

mrkleen - At any level of play, the game of basketball is really about getting the play into the paint (via dribble, pass, or even a rebound). The team that gets the ball into the paint the most will win about 80% of the time. The team that does that gets higher percentage shots and more FT attempts than its' opponent. THAT is why DUKE gets more FT attempts - NOT because officials favor them.

If you go back and watch the entire BC vs DUKE game, you will probably see that DUKE has more possessions where they get the ball into the paint than BC. Not all teams foul the same amount. Your complaints are exactly like a coach yelling "my guys are getting killed" - yet the coach can't cite a specific play. It's easy to complain about stat-sheet numbers, but it's a cop-out.

Duke vs. BC
 

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I agree with JRutledge and the like that it wasn't a foul. The referee(s) had to have a lot of courage/training to not call that foul. It seems to me that not only did Williams jump straight up, but when he alighted (rulebook word), he was near the block. When he landed, he was underneath the basket. That tells me that the offense created that contact (at least 95% of it.) The guard was driving to the basket, ran into an immovable/dense object and caromed off of him. Simple physics.

One play that hasn't been brought up is the play right before JJ missed his only FT (late in the game). That foul COULD HAVE been deemed intentional (excessive force). If that would have happened in the NBA, I think that a flagrant would have been called and a fine would be handed down.

re:
 

May I chime in? Williams got to a spot in front of the basket and elevated from there. The offensive player jumped toward the basket (and thus toward Williams) to initiate the contact. The offensive player did what every coach tells a scorer to do when attacking a big man. I got my first look at the play on PTI Thursday. Guys, it took a lot of GUTS by that official not to call a foul. Who was the official by the way. I could always use another mentor.

I didn't watch the game live and have only seen the replay from one angle on ESPN.com. From the high midcourt angle, I think you could make a case either way. Foul or no foul.

Like Red, I did look to see where the officials were at the moment of contact. It appears that the L was in good position to see in between the offensive and defensive players. I also noticed that the C was still running at the moment of contact. The fact that he was moving could have affected his view of the play and led to the decision to not blow the whistle.

Re: re:
 

I believe that it was Gary Maxwell.

I thought I'd wait a few days to chime in on this one, since nobody would give any credence to my assessment of the play since I would be said to be obviously incapable of an objective critique. So I'll simply say that that I agree with the biggest UNC fan on this board and leave it at that.

My real question is this: if it weren't Duke, do any of you who are so cock-sure that this was a foul believe that you might be able to see your way clear to maybe, possibly, think differently about this one? Somehow I think that if this had been Creighton versus SEMO, some of you guys would be willing to take a second look at your first impression. Just a thought.

More thoughts....
 

You're right. This was only the #2 nationally ranked team playing the #15 nationally ranked team (AP Poll) from the ACC. The nationally ranked #1 team in the country (only a few miles down the road from Chestnut Hill in Boston) from arguably the number #1 conference (The Big East) in the country did not play that night.

Nice non sequitor.

JD,

I do not think it matters who the team are. I think many officials penalize the defense when they make good plays or do nothing wrong. It could be the school of the blind playing the school of the deaf and many officials would still call this a foul on the defense. The fact that this happen in a Duke game makes the topic more interesting but nothing is going to change many judgments by officials. That is why I referenced the NCAA Bulletins. It takes more guts to make a call against the offense or not to call a foul on the defense when the ball handler/shooter hits the floor.

Peace

With malice towards none.

I used to ref Teddy Ebersol's game at the Gunnery.

Rut,

You seriously don't read any anti-Duke bias in any of the posts in this thread? Seriously?

JD,

I think you are paranoid. Stop thinking everyone hates Duke so much that this has to be the reason they would make this decision. I see officials make calls like this a lot and Duke is not on the court. ;)

Peace

Rut,

I won't bother you any more on this matter after this post, but two things:

1) I don't think that Duke-hating is the reason a lot of people have the first reaction that they do. I think that a lot of people would look at any two jerseys and say, at first, "That's a foul." My point is that I believe that if the defender weren't from Duke, many would have been much more willing to see that this play isn't "obviously a foul."

2) Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they're not really out to get me ;)

JB

I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier. Sherman :0) is a great shot blocker. The officials know this. When you've established time after time that you know how to block a shot without fouling and that you understand the difference between verticality and lack thereof and the difference between contact and illegal contact, I think you're going to get the benefit of the doubt.

I remember that Emeka Okafor got the same exact treatment many times in his Junior year. Time after time after time, you'd see a very close call not called, and the same thing would happen -- you'd start watching the replay with skepticism and then by the end you'd sort of shake your head and think, "well, darn it, that was clean." Enough of those in a year, particularly with officials who by February have seen you a couple of times, and you're going to get exactly what Sherman got on that call -- officials who don't anticipate and who have in the back of their mind that they are watching a player that can make spectacular clean plays, so they have confidence that what they think the see (or didn't see) is in fact what happened (or didn't).

At that said, it was an extremely close call. I'm not as convinced as the rest of you on verticality. I'm glad the player didn't make the shot, because that would have been a tough one. As it was, I don't think it changed the outcome.

Hey sorry I bailed out on this coversation last week, but I didnt work Friday and had no opportunity to get back to it this weekend. Again, I dont see the play as many of you have. I think it's a call that has to be made. If it happens in the frist half, the call is made. Time and situation are very important in this play. Had the foul been called there is still 8 seconds left with BC at the line shooting 2. If he makes both, BC still has to foul and send Duke to the line for 2. Then come down and hit a prayer. So that call would not have changed the game. I knew something would come of this and it has.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/..._andy#20060203

Here is the link to ESPN's insider magazine. Seems as though the ACC has something to say about the call/no call. It doesnt say that they missed the call or that they got it right, but I have a hard time believing that there would have been a meeting (especially one that the press heard about) to tell the officials that they got the call right. It's incinuated in the article that had the foul been called it wouldnt have changed things much.

Nate I semi agree with you. I think you could have a foul there cause of the situation, but let me throw this at you. Dave Libbey, a great officiating teacher, said that you can call the same type play differently in different parts of the game and still be right. Yes, this would probably be a foul earlier in the game as a game management foul, but this late in the game and being as vertical as he was, I would just have to pass on it myself, just as Gary did, and if I get to talk to him I will see what he says.