Last night...girls varsity from rival schools in a one point game. Red point gaurd (clearly their best player) gets two quick fouls called on her from my partner to start the second quarter. On the next trip dowm the floor after her second foul she tries to make a steal while pressing and clearly goes through A1 so I give her her third foul. Since that put white on the line for one and one we start heading down the floor when I notice A1 put both hads in the air...say something...then lower them in disgust. I didn't want to T her and give her a 4th foul so I decide to do some preventative offiating.

I ease over to the Red coach and say (as best as I can remember).

Me: Coach you may want to talk to #1, she is getting frustrated.
Coach: I can't blame her, your whistle was real late.
Me: May have been a little late coach but it was clearly a foul.
Coach: Yea but your whistle should have been faster...
Me (interupting): It was just a comment coach and I will try to have a faster whistle.

The coach starts to complain about the call (the one he just admitted was a foul) and continues on about the whistle. I say "Let it go, coach." and move away about a step and a half. He then starts complaining about the other two fouls my partner called. I tell him "We're done coach, that's enough"...he continues so I repeat it and put my hand up in a stop sign. While my hand is still up he keeps going so I leave it up and say "Last chance coach...that's enough."

He increases the volume a little but keeps going...Whack.

After I told my partner the situation and go to administer the shots while she tells him he is seatbelted the remainder of the game I couldn't help but wonder if I had baited him into a T.

There was a member of our chapter working the clock (he is affiliated with that school). At half time I ask him to join us since he heard the interaction. He didn't think I baited him but I want further input.

Thanks

I think the whole interaction was too long, especially since you gave him information to help him. You didn't have to try to help him but since you did you should have cut the conversation short and showed him the backside.

The one thing that stands out for me is: Why would you EVER try to have a "faster whistle?" Sometimes contact happens and you need to wait to see if it causes a disadvantage. The idi....er....people in the stands and on the benches don't understand that, but that doesn't mean you should try to have a quick whistle.

I would've talked to the player, not the coach.

Don't agree with the coach that you had a late whistle. Tell him you have a patient whistle because you want to make sure you see the whole play and don't want to anticipate and get the call wrong.

Agree, that's preventive officiating. If "star player" doesn't wanna listen, oh well.....

The coach's best player just got 3 fouls called against her. Even if they were obvious calls, the coach is still gonna be a little pissed. Keep away from him and let him cool down a little and get over it.

I agree, tomegun.
LarryS could have turned away, but that coach, unfortunately caught LarryS in a chatty mood that night.
mick

If that's all she did I don't think I would have said anything to the player at that moment unless I knew her as the type who could be talked down. Would have definitely not gone to the coach. Agree the discussion did go on way too long, should have moved away when he gave you the late whistle BS. IMO a coach loses a lot of credibility when he starts in with that and I don't ever discuss the timing of my whistle with a coach, the only thing I say is that the call was correct, period. IMO there's no way to win a late whistle discussion.

Thanks for the feedback. I like the "patient whistle"...wish I would have thought of that.

I first intent was to speak with the player but she went to the far side of the court and it would have drawn attention to us if I had walked over. Since it was already becoming intense I wanted to address it quick and figured the coach was the next best thing.

I have to agree that I let the conversation go too long...probably the result of me being there by him while the free throws were happening. Looking back now, I should have moved another step onto the floor and down lowere than normal so I could have completely turned my back to him.

Oh well...you live and learn. At least the home team came out in the second half and took the visitors apart (out scored them something like 32 - 4).

Where were your partners? If I'm the non-calling official in this case, I'm heading over to do the preventive officiting with the player. In this case I would tell them I understand that you're frustrated and why your frustrated, but we don't need to see you throw up your hands on the floor. I'm becoming more and more a believer that officials shouldn't initiate conversations with coaches. Nothing good seems to come of it for the most part. I don't think you baited him, but it might not have been the best time to initiate a conversation.

Of course the temptation is there to say, "Coach if you thought that whistle was late, you are gonna love this one."

As you give his stud PG the T, you were trying to help the nimrod avoid.:D

What about going to the captain rather than the coach? I've never tried this, but I've heard it can be effective if done right.

OK, honest question -- how many people remember who the captain is after getting the numbers at the captain's meeting? I will have the numbers in order to ask each captain if he/she is ready for the tip, but I usually lose it after that.

I try to remember the names and the numbers of one of the captains on each team throughout the game. I don't ask for a "speaking captain" in FED games, though.

OK, honest question -- how many people remember who the captain is after getting the numbers at the captain's meeting? I will have the numbers in order to ask each captain if he/she is ready for the tip, but I usually lose it after that. [/B][/QUOTE]Guilty. I'll talk to anyone if they're polite, but I usually couldn't tell you who the captains are though, if asked.

You don't bait someone in a T by 1) trying to get them to keep their players/bench under control; 2) by preventative officiating; or 3) by giving him constant reminders and warnings.

No.

As many have said you had a long conversation with the coach, you also warned him way to many times. Once you told him that's enough, T him up after that. If you're not going to T him, then don't continue conversation, just walk away. Don't feel like you have to have the last word.

My conversation would have been like this:
Me: Coach you may want to talk to #1, she is getting frustrated.
Coach: I can't blame her, your whistle was real late.
Me: Okay Coach.

If he doesn't want to help out his #1 player then he can't be mad if she gets a T later in the game. I mihgt not even have responded to the comment but that would have been the end of my conversation.

Guilty. I'll talk to anyone if they're polite, but I usually couldn't tell you who the captains are though, if asked. [/B][/QUOTE]

I fergit after the tip (...and often before, if I'm umping).
We, too, will talk to anyone. In fact, we sometimes tell all the captains that bit of information at center circle.
mick

As a coach, I would probably have appreciated your comment... although I might have been a little unclear what you meant by "talk to number X." Talk to her and tell her to lay off? (ie: reprimand her more) Talk to her and explain why you called the foul? (ie: assist in teaching a player a little about the game).

My reaction would also depend on how chatty you had been up to that point in the game. If it was clear that you, as a ref, were friendly and interested in teaching, I would appreciate the comment and thank you. If you had thus far not said anything to me or I perceived you as being hostile or unfair, I would be a little more leary...

...but I definitely wouldn't argue with you if I thought you were trying to help. Just my 2 cents. Sounds like this guy deserved the T.

3rd quick foul? Sounds like she was heading to the bench right off quick anyway.

I only give one warning (with the stop sign). Remember, coaches want to vent and they want information. You respond to questions, but not necessarily to comments.

I don't think you baited the coach. However, I think it looks bad when an official initiates conversation with the coach and T's him. Sometimmes the coach leaves you no choice. When you sense that the conversation is going on too long or in a direction that you don't want, simply turn away or move away.

My other thought is, how well do you know the coach? Is this a tactic (talking to him) that has worked for you, or others, in the past? If you know this kind of information, remember it. Lots of times you don't and you don't know what to expect so you have to try your best and sometimes (like now) it doesn't work too well.

Officiating is an art, not a science. Things don't always work the way we think they should. Take this experience, learn what you can from it and be better next time.

Guilty. I'll talk to anyone if they're polite, but I usually couldn't tell you who the captains are though, if asked. [/B][/QUOTE]

I circle the captains' numbers in the books. If I really need it, I can always find a reason to get that information from the book without anyone knowing I didn't have it in the first place.

Captains are stupid, they get no special treatment with me. I talk to them at the pregame and don't make any point to remember them.

If a non-captain asks you a question are you going to ignore him? I don't, I will talk to anyone as long as they speak respectfully.

If a speaking captain yells at you are you going to give him extra slack because he is a captain. I don't.

Finding out who the speaking captain is dumb and a waste of time, I just do it because its part of the pregame duties.

JMO.

If coach watching the same game I am, then coach probably knows what I'm referring to. If #X is doing some crap and I think you might not see it, I'll probably be more specific. If coach gives me a response like in the original sitch, and/or his player continues to screw up the game then Mr. Fox will sign #X another song.

I agree with all your statements except I don't get a speaking captain. Oh, and I don't necessarily think captains are stupid.