I am new to this site. I am an official IHSA in Baseball & Softball, but only ref for church leagues in basketball.

At my 12 yr old son's games lately, several parents who know me have been coming up to me asking WHY...? I have never said it is the REF's fault. And both teams parents come to me.

One VERY young kids Ref has heard the bad mouthing from parents and he is positive that I am the root of all evil.

He is very one sided in all games I have seen whether or not my kid has been a participant in the game. (READ I'm not bias toward one side or the other on some games. These same parents know that I do not play favorites in baseball season when it is I ump or there is no game.) He came to me after the game night before last complaining to me about the "missed calls" and my qualifications to say so. He asked for examples and I gave them to him with exact player #s and call that I would have given. I also explained that I know that with a 2 person team, that there will be some calls missed, but I did not understand why there were very appearant calls that were not made in his area of responsibility. I could tell I was already under his skin and it did not matter what I said. I politely excused myself from the situation.

Two minutes later, the principal of the school came to me. The ref has stated if he sees me open my mouth at any game again--not to him, but to anyone--he will call a T on my son's team and I will be evicted from game. I briefly explained that I was not the problem and that she (past IHSA Ref) and I both know the rules of the game. I also let her know she should encourage him to be a little thicker skinned to what parents are saying. I have had to learn the thick skin for baseball, ignoring comments. I once again excused myself.

I wonder, from you pros in this area. What should I do or say. He is scheduled to ref about 1/2 of my son's remaining games.

Thank you for your time.

My advice would be to say nothing and do nothing. This is a low level game. Encourage your son, cheer for his team, and take them out for ice cream afterwards. If parents ask you about a call, simply tell them you're not on the floor. When you entertain other parents' ideas that this official is not good, you're adding gas to the fire as they see you as an expert because you work other sports. This official could very well be either a new official learning the trade, or an official that is only working that level for a reason (because they are not ready to move up the ladder). Either way, you're not going to gain anything by talking to him or taking action.

I usually do not answer the parents on if a call should or should not have been made. As that has always been my practice in baseball/softball.

And I have never addressed him except the one time he came to me. I do cheer for all players, my son's team, but the players from other teams that I know (which is most).

Thank you for your help Junker.

When do we get to hear the official's description of the same incident?

Call me suspicious, but somehow I think that the official's story might just be a tad different than a fanboy/parent's. Officials and principals never bother with parents who are just cheering their kids on, in my experience.

Next game - go sit or stand somewhere way away from the other parents. That way you can cheer all you want, and the other parents won't be bugging you with all their questions/gripes. And if someone does walk over to where you are and complain, your LOUD response should be "Oh come on now, ______. These refs are doing a great job for our kids." Loud enough for the sensitive ref to hear.

What do you mean when you call an official "one-sided?"

Do you mean he called more fouls on one team? Do you mean that he did not call fouls at all on one team?

I can speak from experience in basketball that it is very hard to call things just based on what one team is doing. I know I do not count the fouls I make, I just call what happens.

If I have not said this 100 times I will say this again. This is a lower level game. You are not likely going to see the best officials (I know that is the case mostly in Illinois). At least you will not with the amount of varsity and college games going on 7 days a week. You are not going to see the best officials no matter how much you think you should.

Peace

Rockyroad.. Great suggestion. Can't really get away all together as we are in a small gym, but I can sit or stand near the principal at the score table so she would see that I am not instigating anything and the ref is making something out of nothing at least on my part.

Jurassic, would love to have you hear his side, but I'm not going to stop to talk to him about posting it.

JRutledge, This particular ref is a little one sided. Not counting the calls, just noticing the type of call for one team and not the other.

I'll use a game where my son's team was not playing as an example.

The maroon team would go over the back for rebounds, would literally trip the guards from the green team as they were trying to bring the ball down in some cases the guard would end up on the floor. When the green team had the ball coming down the court, you would hear the whisle blow at least every other trip against the maroon team. Last 1 minute of reg play, Green team kids actually pushed maroon team kids while dribbling that he ended up in stands a couple feet away from where he was at. Personally, Call it - Don't call it, just keep the same rule for calling for a whole game.

I agree with Junker that your primary activity should be cheering for, and encouraging, the players. Your secondary activity should be helping fellow parents focus their energies on the primary activity.

I would, however, suggest that you go one step further. The next time you see this young official, go up to him at an appropriate time (e.g., while he's on the floor officiating would not be that time) and apologize. Sincerely apologize. Say that you know it's a tough job and you appreciate his efforts. Then go back to your responsibilities under paragraph one.

This is old news now, but in the future if an official approaches you for advice and constructive criticism, privately give it to her/him. If the official approaches you for some other reason (as appears to be the case here), you might refrain from pointing that he is a lousy official. Even though you profess to be unbiased, what you think of as missed calls that were apparent, most of us are likely to think of as calls viewed by a parent.

Best wishes as you become the parent/fan for whom it would be a joy to work your games in front of. [Edit: That last sentence is garbled. I meant to say: You're a sports official; you should know better. Practice the Golden Rule and become the fan in front of whom you'd like to work your games.]

[Edited by bgtg19 on Jan 13th, 2006 at 04:57 PM]

On another forum, there's a similar thread.

My response there was something like, "In this game you're a fan. Fans should STFU."

bgtg19 was more polite. ;)

This sounds like a big pile of crap to me.

if you're a ref, then be quiet. we have enough people complaining towards us without brother officials doing it too!

What you do is spend quite a few minutes before the game alone in the car remembering your very first ever officiating experience. If you were an adult at that time, you think back to the games you've worked with a very,very new partner who was a teenager. Don't tell me you've never worked those before. Remember the uncertainty, the self-consciousness, the lack of conviction and understanding. Feel again the confusion about the various interpretations of rules that you'd heard from various sources.

Then you remember what people said to you that was encouraging, helpful or uplifitng in those situations.

Those are the only words you're allowed to say to this guy, or to anyone else about this guy.

If you've really never felt the kinds of insecurity this fellow is working through, you go to him and offer to be his partner for a couple of his games that your son won't be playing in. But then when you're back to being a parent, nothing but encouragement and praise.

In the lower levels of play, there's no acceptable reason to critique the refs, unless you're their direct supervisor.

Let me clear some things up for you.

#1, there's no such thing as ever the back. Just like "the hands are part of the bat," "over the back" is a myth.

http://www.saoa.faync.com/Basketball...the%20Back.htm

#2, just because you trip over my feet, it doesn't mean that I've fouled you. I'm entitled to my spot on the floor, just as you are. Unless I obviously stick my foot out in front of you and intetnionally trip you, it's nothing.

As for the threat by the official made against you, talk to the official's booking agent about it, if the principal is going to back you up.

Did you say you were a BASKETBALL official? It doesnt sound like it to me. Color me suspicious, crayon.

You should be taking no part in criticizing the officials to the parents. How about saying something like "they are right there on the floor, they have the best angle to make the call." How about "They are trained to be in position to make that call." Or "If he passed on it it is because he felt the contact was incidental." How about "come on, do you really think these guys are volunteering their time to purposely skew games?" Or how about "Not all contact is a foul." How about "Just cause they didnt call it doesnt mean they didnt see it. They are focusing on advantage and disadvantage." Or maybe, "heck, they cant call it that tight at this level, neither of the teams would ever cross the freethrow line and the game would take 3 hours." Or better yet "I've got an idea, YOU volunteer to be an official. I can hook you up with the head of the association." Or how about "do you even know what the traveling rule is? And if not, how can you complain about what the officials are calling?" You know, now that I think about it, you could really be doing a great service for officials in your area by helping build awareness. Help teach the parents. But instead you are being part of the problem.

If you actually have a problem with an official, you should quietly be talking to his assigner or commish and expressing your concerns, not talking to other parents and fueling the fire.

And you might want to brush up on the over the back rule, its rule 11-5-9.

I just reviewed your initial post. Sounds like the main problem is that you dont actually know anything about the official rules of basketball.

So I guess, as you say, when "He came to me after the game night before last complaining to me about the missed calls and my qualifications to say so" you should have told him that you arent "qualified to say so."

[Edited by cdaref on Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:32 AM]

Cray: if a parent comes up to me about, well, really any issue, and are respectful, I'm going to listen. Then, I'm going to say, "thanks" and ignore everything they said. I won't, however, say anything threatening about what I'm going to do if the parent keeps complaining. If and when it becomes an issue, I'll deal with it then, but I seriously doubt it will.

If they are abusive, hostile, or rude, I'll either walk away (most likely) or engage them with pointed questions that make it apparent they are an utter fool. As a trial lawyer, I'm pretty good at that.

I'm telling you this to say my reaction to you, whether you might have a point or not, in this situation would be to ignore you. I'm not really interested in the fact that you may have a little bit (or even more) knowledge about the game and the rules. I believe that when I step out on the court to work, I am the most qualified person to be out there. Nobody's perfect, and I'm no exception, but I take critiques from people I know can help me very seriously. I let all other comments, whether they are an attempt at constructive comments or not, go in one ear and out the other. The fact is that I'm being paid to be there, and you (or whoever) had to pay to get in.

If you really believe there's a problem, then you need to drop your "rec ball only" and get out on the court with the rest of us. I don't mean this to sound anything but the matter-of-fact tone I'm thinking in.

TX A...I did think about taking the test and joining you guys out there, leaving my rec time in the past. I actually had taken a class room training prep for the test covering the basics of the rules and making the call. However, I am so busy with life that I decided not to over extend myself this year. Maybe next year I will take something else out of my life to fit it in. (It sounds like you are too and I commend you for supporting the youth in your area.) I work as a financial advisor FT, volunteer for a not for profit as a Financial Education Teacher, church, baseball / softball official, not to mention mom to 3 and wife that keeps up the household stuff.

Thank ALL of you for your responses. I appreciate each of you taking your time to respond to me.

commenting on another official's mistake
 

Like everyone else here, I have been asked by other fans:
"He really blew that call, didn't he?" When a judgment call is involved, I try to remain at least neutral: "Oh, that might have been a foul, but from his angle, it may have looked totally different, etc." BUT, when the officials totally screw up a rule, and fans know enough to question the call, I don't feel guilty for telling them if they are right. Example: A1 was grabbed from behind by B1 on a layup, and the shot was good. Officials counted the basket and awarded 3 free throws. Explanation: 1 for the foul, and 2 for the intentional. A couple of people sitting near me asked, "How can that be?" I said, "It can't, they made a mistake. It happens." (smile) I do not see this as being critical of other officials, (the public will do that on their own) but as educating fans who were interested enough to ask about the rules. As far as commenting on accusations of "obvious" one-sided calling, even if I agreed, I would never say so.

Sorry, JAR, you're not educating fans. You're publically telling them that your fellow officials are incompetent. Those officials are done for the night in that gym as soon as you came out with your remarks- and maybe their next trip into that gym also. There's a helluva difference between education and telling fans that the officials just completely blew a call. What you're doing is just unprofessional as hell imo.

We have had this conversation before, sir, and forgive me but I fail to recall what your answer was as to what I should say. You say that I have branded the officials as incompetent. On this one call, they were incompetent. How do you defend that? One of the people who asked me was a coach and a close friend of mine (go figure that one) who basically already knew the call was wrong, but refers to me as his "rules encyclopedia." What do I say to him, and the others who are interested and listening? I respectfully await your suggestion. How is this any different than when a player steps out of bounds and half the crowd sees it but the officials do not. Everybody knows this is wrong, but it is just one call. Did they not know when they arrived that the officials would miss calls?

We have had this conversation before, sir, and forgive me but I fail to recall what your answer was as to what I should say. You say that I have branded the officials as incompetent. On this one call, they were incompetent. How do you defend that?

[/B][/QUOTE]To refresh your memory, my answer is that you should say <b>nothing</b>. If you don't want to defend your incompetent fellow officials, then simply do not comment on your incompetent fellow officials. It is completely unprofessional imo for an official to sit in the stands and openly critique, evaluate or comment on the competency or calls of their fellow officials to fans.

One blown call does not necessarily mean that an official is incompetent. Telling fans about that blown call though certainly brands that official as being incompetent in their eyes. Bye-bye credibility for that official.

Obviously we disagree.

To refresh your memory, my answer is that you should say <b>nothing</b>. If you don't want to defend your incompetent fellow officials, then simply do not comment on your incompetent fellow officials. It is completely unprofessional imo for an official to sit in the stands and openly critique, evaluate or comment on the competency or calls of their fellow officials to fans.

One blown call does not necessarily mean that an official is incompetent. Telling fans about that blown call though certainly brands that official as being incompetent in their eyes. Bye-bye credibility for that official.

Obviously we disagree. [/B][/QUOTE]

Just so I understand: You are watching a game, with a coach/friend sitting a couple of seats away. There is a double foul. Officials administer free throws on both ends and go to the possession arrow. Your friend says, "JR, that's not right is it? Shouldn't they have....etc. ?" You literally say nothing? Somebody else offer an opinion and break the tie, please.

Just so I understand: You are watching a game, with a coach/friend sitting a couple of seats away. There is a double foul. Officials administer free throws on both ends and go to the possession arrow. Your friend says, "JR, that's not right is it? Shouldn't they have....etc. ?" You literally say nothing? Somebody else offer an opinion and break the tie, please.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with JR on this, so the tie is broken. On several occassions, I have been in this same position where people sitting around me know that I am an official and asks why something was or was not called. Like you, I smile, but I tell them I don't comment either way on another offical's calls. In my opinion, if you comment, it is a no-win situation.

I'm with JR on this, so the tie is broken. On several occassions, I have been in this same position where people sitting around me know that I am an official and asks why something was or was not called. Like you, I smile, but I tell them I don't comment either way on another offical's calls. <font color = red>In my opinion, if you comment, it is a no-win situation.</font>
[/B][/QUOTE]'Zackly!

So if the fans question a call which is unfamiliar and the officials are right, you say nothing then either?

JAR, that's a heckuva lot different than telling fans that an official just completely blew a call.

We disagree completely on your philosophy. You don't have to justify that philosophy. You certainly have every right to have that philosophy. However, I happen to think your philosophy is unprofessional and completely wrong. That's my right too. You obviously think that I'm wrong also. That's OK too.

Iow, we're just going round'n'round and repeating ourselves now. It's officially become a waste of time. I ain't gonna change your opinion and you ain't gonna change my opinion. Might as well let it go.

JAR -- The wording is, "It's her game, and her call. You'll have to ask her." Or, as another person said, "I don't comment on another refs' games. I'm just here as a fan today." Yes, it's the same as saying nothing, but doing it in a polite way.

This isn't the same as supporting a ref when she's right, and the fans are angry. In that case, you're not commenting on the games, you're commenting on the fans, and their ignorance.

If you're being asked to comment on both right and wrong things that the same ref does, you just back out of the situation entirely by saying, "My neighbor is playing in this game, so I'm not really watching the refs." or "I'm working on learning his mechanics, so I didn't see the play" or something vague like that. If worse comes to worse, go sit somewhere else.

I'm telling you these things, because they are things refs did in the stands when I was the one on the floor who was out of line. I felt supported and relaxed and willing to learn and change when my fellow refs were on my side, and not letting me being bumped. The times I've had other refs attacking me or helping others attack, I've been completely devastated. No matter how wrong another ref is, you don't want to contribute to that kind of stuff. You never know when it might be you taking the hits.

If you really want to rag on someone, rag on Billy Packer, or Bill Walton. You can say to the parent, "Is that the interp you heard from Billy Packer on TV? Because that guy doesn't know the top of his head from a bowling ball. You can't trust anything he says about rules. And I'd think coaches wouldn't like him either. So often he'll criticize a play, just as the kid is breaking free for an easy lay-up...." and then walk off. This helps refs in two ways. It deflects criticism from the ref on the floor, and it also gives those fans the idea that Billy Packer may not be the expert that he makes himself out to be. Neither thing is bad.

The point is.....
 

according to my wife, I just like to argue. This is true, too, but that is another story. I am saying that you can't have it both ways. Many times the question is about a judgment call. "Oh my gosh!! Did you see that?? That was no travel!!!" Then they turn to me. (or whoever they may deem competent on the subject.....there's a compliment in there somewhere, I think) "Was it?" If I agree with the call, I quickly say so. "Yes, I thought it was a good call." If I disagree, I try to be diplomatic. "Hard to say from here." But, when the question is about a rule and people ask, I find it hard not to answer. People know that I know, or should know, the answer, which is why they asked me in the first place. If I give no answer, are the officials not, in effect, condemned by my silence?

[nevermind] :)

[Edited by cdaref on Jan 16th, 2006 at 05:30 PM]

No, I don't. My philosophy (right or wrong) is that I am not there to educate the fans. If it's a call they don't like and if I tried to explain why the official was correct, they generally won't listen anyway. It's sort of like..."Don't confuse me with facts because my mind is already made up". Constantly questioning the officials, and thinking I was aways right, played a big part in my becoming an official. My lovely wife, who wouldn't stand near me on a soccer field or sit with me in the stands, finally told me to put up or shut up.

I coached my son in little kids basketball and soccer. I was pleased as punch that he was out there having fun and learning how to get along with kids and learn something about the game and himself. And about dealing with losing and bad calls. If I look back carefully, I can say that the KIDS were the ones who were the LEAST concerned about the referees. The game is for the kids. When I watched my kid play (seasons when I wasn't coaching him), I never said a word about the officials. It just isn't important to me. His enjoyment of the game is most important. Parents need to step back and realize that this is about the kids, not them! I was fortunate to have my kid in leagues where winning was not stressed. There are two concepts of youth sports: (1) pro mode - where trophies and uniforms and winning and standings are important (2) developmental mode - where teaching kids about the sport and getting along are important. Every survey that I have ever seen of kids' attitudes toward sport has resulted in the kids putting FUN as their number one reason for playing. Winning is always ranked #5 or lower.

Forksref

I agree with you completely. The FUN stat is something I have known for years. I have always tried to support any kids playing a sport. Most of them are there for fun and to be with friends not to win.

I was the director and ref for the local church league of Upward (which I'm assuming that you are also describing). I then moved to licensed official in baseball / softball, and only the ref for church league.

Now I my oldest plays school ball where it is definitely PRO FORM. I actually found myself very elated when he was traded from the cats to the birds this year. Cats team has an awful coach (and entire family) with language and attitude. Birds coach knows both my son and I from when he coached Upward for me. I happy that on that team winning is not the most important thing, though it is important because of the league. Win at all cost league.