As long as there are so many threads about coaches going, what do you guys tell a coach who says, "Watch number 24 for (fill in the foul or violation)!" Last time I had a coach say that, I just said, "I'm watching the whole game!" Do you ever give an OK to that? I tend not to, because I don't want it to seem like I'm acting on their directions. How about, "We're on it!" Other ideas?

I absolutely say I will watch it. I don't feel that means I am not watching everything else but helps the coach to know that I am willing to listen. I have NEVER had a coach abuse that and tell me to watch a whole bunch of different things, but I guess that could happen. In that case I would deal with it differently.

On the flip side I have had coaches ask me to watch (fill in the blank violation or infraction) and if they keep complaining I sometimes say "give me a number, coach". Most of the time they have no number ready to give and we move on. It works really well. I had a coach respond with "everyone, all of them are holding!" I said "really coach, you honestly want me to believe that EVERY player on there team is holding on EVERY play?" That was the end of that complaint as well.

I never think it is a bad idea to talk with coaches who are respectful in a respectful way and at an appropriate time. Sometime I find they are RIGHT and # so and so was actually setting doing what they were saying.

Just my opinion.

It's just slightly too long for a "run by," but this is my typical response if I'm standing: "O.K., Coach. We'll look for it on both ends."

FWIW, I don't think you necessarily change what you say, but I do think it can be more valuable to actually listen and look for what the coach is asking for in a two-person game. Especially if it's off ball stuff. With three-person, the crew usually has the court covered, but with fewer eyes it *is* possible that we're missing something.

OK, I'll give you that. But suppose coach A yells, "Watch the illegal screen by #55!" loud enough for coach B to hear, and a moment later you're calling one on #55. Isn't that an uncomfortable situation? Are you opening yourself up for the other coach to start advising? Granted, if he IS setting an illegal screen, you've got to call it, but that's why I don't like to hear coaches telling me what I'm (supposedly) missing.

I typically do not like the "Watch number....." conversation. All they are trying to do is con you into calling something that is not there. Usually that line comes from a player. Then I put it back on them and say, "You know that means I will be watching you." Then I do not hear another word for the rest of the game. Look, the coaches are playing a mind game. I am not watching one player because they say so.

Peace

This is too broad a stroke. Some coaches try to con officials into doing something, and when you discover that you can tune *that* coach out; but don't tune out all coaches. Some coaches try to play mind games, and when you discover that you can refuse to play along. I think it's helpful to enter a game with the expectation that a coach is going to treat you with respect; then adjust course if the respect is not forthcoming. A respectful request from a coach to "watch so and so" is fine with me.

You look at it as a board stoke, I look at it as reality. I have even had coaches say directly to me after an exchange like this, "I can beg can't I?" Coaches know what they are doing. You never see them tell you to watch their own players for obvious infractions and fouls. I also did not say I had a problem with them simply asking, that is what they do. I just do not have to put much stock into it. The best coaches I know are not spending their time worrying about every call. I know who to watch for and what to watch for. I do not need their help.

Peace

I don't care if a coach quietly asks me to watch a player.

If I think he's full of crap I'll just smile, tell him sure thing, thanks.

If it's something I've been letting go I'll tell him everyone's doing it (that's why I've been letting it go of course).

Had the exact thing happen in a JV game recently. Sparse crowd, so coach A's voice was easily heard saying, "Watch 34 holding." Sure 'nuff, on the inbounds, 34 held. I hated to, but I called it. Coach B comments, "You gonna let him call the game?" On the ensuing inbounds, 34 holds so bad the offended player loses his balance. My partner calls it this time. Nothing else is said. Call what happens.

If a coach or player says "watch number...", just say, "OK" and leave it at that. There's no reason to let him know you are basically ignoring the request. Saying "OK" gives him the impression you are going to do something about it.

There's no good reason to say anything else. You aren't going to persuade them what your real job is, so why bother? It just potentially invites trouble later.

A lot of times Coach is complaining about something that one of his players does.


"can you watch for #24 palming the ball?"

"Coach, your #12 is doing the exact same thing when he has the ball."

"Thank you."

"Thank you"

"I hear you, coach"

"Thank you"


For some reason, this has been foolproof (me-proof!). Coach knows you heard him, but you're not giving him anything, either. Works well on parents, too.

"you're horrible!" "Thank you."

"Blow the d*** whistle" "Thank you."

"I hope you're not doing the next game." "Thank you."

It blows them away because it's so completely and totally meaningless, and there's no way they can respond. I don't ever say it, unless the parent is situated physically in such a way that I can't avoid responding. But in those few situations where there's no way to escape, it's just like magic. I love it.

If it is prior to the game (I had this happen last year) tell the coach that after you get done with talking to him/her you are going to go ask the opposing coach if there is any player on his team he would like me to watch out for. I had a coach ask me last year during pre-game if I would watch number 24 because she pushes a lot. I said I would and that I would also ask the other coach who I should watch on his team in order to be fair. He obviously did not like my response but couldn't challenge it either since I said it very politely. By the way, the player he asked me to watch did not push at all, scored a bunch of points and was the other team's best player.

I have to disagree with you on that statement. Some coaches, not many are just trying to coach. There are team that do try to use every trick in the book to get an advantage. I always tell the coach, I will keep an eye out of it.

By the way, on my earlier post, I have to say I learned that technique from this forum (I think it was from Mark Padgett). I never actually went and asked the other coach. Once I said that the home coach realized maybe he should be careful what he asks for. Just wanted to give credit to this forum for helping me out. I have never said it since because it was a unique situation. If it happens during a game I just tell a coach that we will watch for it. I have even told a coach that i am just not seeing it the way he's telling me but I am and I will continue to watch for it. It normally works.

Rainmaker,

Request permission to copy this and use it myself. I think this is a great response and I can see a coach or fan just giving a stunned look when you simply say "Thank you."

It sure must be a pleasure to work with you. Explain this to me though your comment, "If it's something I've been letting go I'll tell him everyone's doing it (that's why I've been letting it go of course)." What exactly would you as a self proclaimed enforcer of the rules "LET GO".

IMO if a coach says "watch #34 she is holding" then I am not going to make #34 my focus, but I will keep an eye open to see exactly whats going on. If he/she continues to ask for holding, then reply with I see the game and i see no infractions, when I do I'll blow the whistle. Do we ever miss calls??? How many times have you been waiting for your Varsity game to start, and while watching the JV game thought to yourself, "how can these guys not see that HE/SHE is (fill in the blank)." Point being that if a coach is pointing something out, he/she could be FOS and trying to throw you off your game, however he/she could have a legitimate case that might need to be addressed.

Sounds as though some of us maybe a little insecure. We miss things all the time. We are human, to error is common.

Breathe, Nate. Relax a little. It's too early in the morning for that level of frustration. :)

I would personally never use Dan's line "everybody's doing it", b/c the coach would probably have a retort that I wouldn't like. Having said that, there are plenty of things that we let go b/c they have no effect on the game.

Little guys with one foot in the lane for 4 seconds. Palming the ball while dribbling alone in the backcourt. Hand checking while the dribbler is not making any attempt to go to the basket.

Even as a self-proclaimed enforcer of the rules, I let these things go all the time. They're just not important. And if you're working a little kids game, then there's even more stuff that you're going to let go; otherwise your game will take 3 hours.

In kids and lower level games there are some things that you "let go", it is a must. But in upper level games??? Sure some incidental contact or hand checking that has no effect on the game. But my quetion is are you "letting anything go??" Those are not fouls/violations. Palming the ball in the backcourt, is a violation and in upper level games how are you going to respond to a coach who burns a TO and walks out (calmly) and says "sir he/she is palming the ball in the backcourt everytime, could you please watch for that??" Do you not think that if you blew the whistle one time on this kid who continually palms the ball in the backcourt that he/and his coach would take strides in correcting it? By not calling it were telling the kid it's okay to do it here but when you get here I have to call it.

You know that it is happening. You cant tell a coach that "oh it's in the backcourt and really having an effect on the game." WHY? Because its a violation. I think thats how some officials get a bad reputation. Coaches/AD's/Fans/Assigners see this as calling what you think is important and not calling what you see i.e. fouls and violations.

"I will, Coach. And if he does it on his way to the basket, I'll grab it."


I do not think that the coach would do that. The coach would say, "That's a cheap call. Why are you calling that 60 feet from the basket?" And he'd be right. And then I'd get a phone call from my assignor who would say, "That's a cheap call. Why are you calling that 60 feet from the basket?"

That's exactly what I'm telling him.

I disagree.

And it's also a violation for the post man to have his ankle on the line of the lane for 3 seconds. I don't call that one either. Two guys go up for a rebound. A1 bumps B1 from behind. B1 loses his balance slightly but is still able to secure the rebound without traveling. Some guys would call that a foul on A1. I wouldn't.


I think calling palming in the backcourt is one reason some officials don't reach the level I'd like to reach.

That's b/c that is exactly what I am doing.

If it's quiet enough that only me and the coach can hear his comments I say, "sure coach." If it's loud enough that everyone can hear it, I ignore it.

Z

I guess this is where subjectivity comes in. I see a palming violation in the backcourt as a violation that has to be called for several reasons (mentioned above)and you see a palming violation in the backcourt as a good/legal dribble, but only because it's in the backcourt.

Officiating is Subjective(judgement). In the play you mention above A1 goes up for rebound, contact is made with B1 but does not cause "displacement," that by rule is NOT a foul. So if it's blown as a foul then it has been kicked.

Some officials enforce the 3 second area hard and some not so. My question to you is this, why not blow the whistle the first time you see the backcourt palming (you said you see it and let it go)? If it happens again you blow again. Eventually the dribbler is going to figure out that he must change something. If your assigner questions you about the call then, I would reply with "it's a violation."
What would look worse a coach/AD and gym full of parents and observers sreaming "PALM" and after the game they call your assigner saying "it was clear and obvious that the dribbler was palming the ball in the backcourt. Our coach pointed this out to the official who chose to ignore the rules." If enough people called complaining, I think your assigner may address the issue with you. If we as officials would consistantly call violation that we know are violations there would be less subjectivity. Suppose I work the game with the "Palmer" tonight and I call it from the get-go. After a couple of whistles the kid realizes that he/she cant do it anymore and stops. Tomorrow night you work this "palmers" game and you never call it. What message are we sending?? We are telling that kid to palm the ball all he wants one night and not the next. We must remember that we are dealing with teenagers here. If we just call it from the beginning there will be no confusion.

I do understand your point. And I completely respect your opinion.

Personally, I'd never dream of letting any coach get away with saying any of those. Instant "T". Every comment there is personal and derogatory imo.

1) Quickly acknowledge any coach comments: a) Thank You, b) firm head nod, c) quick thumb up signal.

2) Clear your mind and focus on the game.

When coach calls out violations by a particular player - chances are overwhelming that the player mentioned is "beating" his opponent. If illegal - call it.

What don't you agree with? My first statement is the same as yours (OK coach, thanks = I'll keep an eye out for it).

If you mean this:

====
If it's something I've been letting go I'll tell him everyone's doing it (that's why I've been letting it go of course).
====

Why would you tell a coach you'll "keep an eye out for it" when you've already seen it happen & passed on it and know you'll likely see it again soon and pass on it again? Although I think the term is over used, this type of thing will destroy your credibility IMO.

I'll play coach/devils advocate here. You say, " I saw what your talking about coach and everyone on the floor is doing it." Coach says, "is it not a foul/violation no matter who does it." UHHH...

If the dicussion is about holding, then the answer is yes. You should be blowing the whistle everytime you see it. Your response of "everyones doing it(therefore I am not calling it on anyone) will cause you to lose crediablility faster than if you were calling every hold.

While it's not something I'm likely to say often I can't remember the last time I said "everyone's doing it" and the coach didn't smile back & say "yeah...I know...". That's because when I say "everyone's doing it" I know EVERYONE is doing it, and so does the coach. Also because I'm such a f@cking joy to work with.

If the coach decides he needs to debate me on the topic, well, I don't know about you but I don't debate coaches.

The fact that you must be such a joy to work with is the only clear thing about your reply. The problem is that if you and the coach both know that violations/fouls are being committed, then whose job is it make sure they are called??? Coaches dont have whistles!! We do. It like saying well everyone is "travelling with the ball tonight coach, so I dont think I am going to call it on anyone."

From the sound of things there is a reason you dont talk to coaches(i.e. your sideline manner). No one said anything about debating with coaches. If you reply to the right coach with "oh they are all doing it, so I'm not calling it," they you can guarantee one thing, YOU WILL HAVE SOME EXPLAINING TO DO!!

Yeah, I'm a real prick (that word's OK according to Carl btw so don't email him to complain) and everyone hates me for it.

As for your guarantees... :shrug:

(btw check your caplock key.)

I think this is a good conversation. And I especially appreciate that it's stayed civil. So let's keep it going a little longer. . .

I don't see the palming violation as legal. I recognize that it is illegal. I simply don't think it's worth calling in that situation. The rebounding sitch, as you correctly say, is about judgment. If the calling official thinks B1 was disadvantaged by not being given a normal landing, does that make it a blown call? Hard to say. It's his judgment.

I would ask you "why blow it?" What is the big deal about that call? Nothing. What if you blow it once, twice, three, four times and the point guard is just not talented or smart enough to fix it? Are you going to call 30 palming violations? Why not instead only call it when it makes a difference to the play?

If I gave that reply to my college assignor, I would guess that I would become the bottom rated official on his list. If I gave that reply to an observer at camp (who happens to assign a D1 league to which I aspire), I would instantly be removed from consideration. Go directly to jail, do not pass Go.

You're probably right. I think the conversation would go something like this. "Chuck, I've gotten a lot of calls from fans, coaches and AD's about palming in the backcourt. Screw the fans. Don't stop the game unless it matters".

We're sending the message that you call too many palming violations. :D That's a joke, obviously. But the fact is that I'm not "never" going to call it. I'm just never going to call it when he's unguarded in the backcourt. As soon as he carries to get by a defender, tweet!

My opinion is what I have called the "Big Deal Theory". Our job is to judge which actions are a big deal and which ones are not. I don't think anybody could say that palming while unguarded in the backcourt is really a big deal. It's a technical violation of the rules, yes. But is it a big deal? No. So no whistle.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jan 12th, 2006 at 11:27 AM]

I'm with the simple "OK coach" camp on this. It lets them know you are listening to them (which is what most of them want anyway). As far as actually looking for the foul or violation they want called, it's only getting called if I see it as a foul or violation.

The "Big Deal Theory".

Wow!

I bet you got that one from the....wait for it....SEC.

Nah. It's just my way of saying "don't call palming on an unguarded point guard in the backcourt."

WHAT???!?!?!

Next thing you'll tell us it's ok for the free throw shooter to take more than 10 seconds...

Chuck, I too think this has been a good, interesting, and civil conversation and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

It seems that you probably work HIGHER PROFILE games than me. Especially when you speak of your college assigner. A college player who cant get the ball up the court without "palming" it is in big trouble. You wouldnt have to blow the whistle, maybe the first chance you get walk over and say, "son watch the palming violation." That would probably be sufficient.

My assigner, I don't think, would react the same way yours would. Hence, your BIG TIME, I'm not. You say what if the ball handler isnt capable of dribbling without palming?? Well I mostly work HS games, so I feel that if you cant dribble correctly by this age/stage in the game you might should consider a better way to use your time. But to answer your question if the dribbler palms it 25 times then call it 25 times. At some point the dribbler or coach will figure it out.

You go back to saying that as long as its in the backcourt it's okay by you but in the front court it's an automatic
"tweet." What if it were a Travelling violatioin?? Ball gets inbounded dribble shuffles his/her feet everytime. Then what?? Is this again a no call b/c it's in backcourt??

The way I view it is this: It's a violation, clearly against the rules no matter where it occurs. It deprives the team that is playing correctly of possesions. It's a turnover. If A1 plams/travels in the back court 30 times during the game and there is a no call, then thats 30 more times the other team should have had an opportunity to score b/c of a turnover (unforced or forced).

Another example, A1, while attempting to inbound the ball in the backcourt, steps in bounds before the release of the ball. It's a violation, but b/c it's in the backcourt you aren't going to call it?? Just food for thought.

Again thats for the conversation Chuck.

Your advice might be a little more effective if you used your usual preamble though....

Oompa loompa Doopity Dee
If you were wise you would listen to me....

I, too, have enjoyed the civil conversation. I try not to call palming violations on an unguarded player, but sometimes the palming is SO obvious, so blatant, that it kind of *has* to be called, no? Every once in a while you'll see a player have a brain blurp and commit an illegal dribble (of the "double dribble" variety) that comes completely out of no where. I always call that violation (if I see it, of course); why is the palming variety treated differently? Why should it be?

Thanks for the continuing valuable observations.

First, I hope that you don't feel that I'm trying to "big time" you. These are my feelings and things that I've been told at camps. I work a small D3 schedule, along with my usual HS schedule, so I'm not a big-time ref, by any stretch of the imagination. And I am in NO WAY trying to make myself sound smarter or more important than anybody else. Just sharing my thoughts.

Second, even in the frontcourt, palming is not an automatic to me. If it's palming on the way to the basket, or to get by his defender, then it has to be called, b/c it gave the dribbler a significant advantage. This is an NCAA POE this season, and I think I'm explaining it pretty much the same way it was explained on the pre-season NCAA video.

Third, if it's a traveling violation, I can't give you a hard-and-fast answer. If there's no pressure, I can't see why he would travel. If it's a slight drag of the pivot foot, it's probably not going to get a whistle. If he takes 3 steps before starting his dribble, then that will get a whistle. Traveling is a bigger deal than palming. So I would be more likely to call a minor travel than a minor palming violation.

This is one where I'm pretty sure we've been told (at the NCAA level) that it cannot be ignored. There was an NCAA tourney game a few years ago -- a women's game, I think -- where this happened and the covering official thought it was not a big deal and had no whistle. The opposing coach saw it, the TV cameras saw it, everybody saw it, and there was a big broo-ha-ha. After that, we were told that any line violation is a "big deal". I don't know where that bulletin is or exactly when it was issued. Maybe Mark D or Bob J can remember.

Finally, Dan said he would beat me up if I didn't tell you that he really is a joy to work with. So don't be too hard on him. He's a nice guy. Well, no he's not. But he's stronger than I am. :D In all seriousness, Dan and I have showered together and I'm still in therapy after that. :eek:

D3 is definetly bigger time than me. No I dont feel like you are pushing that your better or bigger, I am just saying you probably are.

Again I'm not sure how or why we as officials try to determine the importance of a violation. A violation/foul is just that. I call it if I see it.

I'm sure Dan is a great guy, as are most of the guys who post here. Something about the comment this morning just didnt sit right with me. Probably me being a JACK@rse.

No, I said I would beat you up if you didn't stop annoying people with stupid jokes based on their tpyos. I have a 15 year old cat, used to weigh around 18# or so...now he can hardly see or hear & probably has cat alzheimer's (I know this because he no longer runs under the nearest couch when I walk in the room) and he weighs about 7#. He has a thyroid condition for which he gets 2 pills a day and hacks up his cat dinner at least once a week - usually on something I left sitting on the floor, God love him.

Chuck, that cat is stronger than you are.

Let me jump on top, since I've been away from the Internet for a few days. Most of us miss the occasional travel or illegal dribble in the backcourt once in a while, because there are better things to watch in a varsity game than a dribbler with no pressure. Most times it's safe to assume that a varsity player can dribble a ball with no defenders nearby......not always.

It should be called every time we ascertain that there's an advantage/disadvantage involved. Not every time we see something. That's how those JV games I see with 60 fouls are called.

That what this whole thread has come down to (again)--advantage vs. disadvantage. Last time I recall a lengthy discussion on this, most of the 'experienced' refs agreed that in their area(s), you couldn't advance unless you knew how to properly apply it.

I think a lot of people would agree that there are several things that coaches want/expect from officials (being a former college asst. coach at D3 and D1 schools - I have a little insight on this). In general, coaches want: good judgement, consistent calls, to know that officials are listening to them, and communication.

If a coach asks you to "watch #24 - he's holding", acknowledge it. A specific request like that is probably accurate (remember I said "probably"). My best advice when a coach continues to harp on a specific foul/violation is to say that "Coach, your getting a consistent game from this crew. That hasn't been called a foul/violation tonight". Focus on the good job the crew is doing instead of hinting that everyone is fouling on the floor and you're not going to do anything about it.

I agree with Chuck, on his "Big Deal" theory. I won't call a handcheck foul when the dribbler is going east-wide; when the dribbler goes north-south then I call it. That works for me.

Having coached
 

for a number of years, I have a feel for what coaches are looking for when they complain. Sometimes, the complaint is legit. "#23 is holding ref." Other times, the complaints are hollow, especially if the team is losing, or, the coach feels other calls aren't going his way (the whistle is only working one way). A simple acknowledgment, "I'll keep an eye coach," is usually all that is needed. Don't say it with tone, don't role your eyes. Just tell them you will watch, and then, without distracting yourself from the other action, keep an eye. In reality, does a coach's negative input or complaining about the calls INTIMIDATE us at all? It shouldn't. If we are calling the best game we can (honest & fair), we can do no more. Play on!

That cat should be coyote bait. :D

I keep telling my wife one day she'll open the freezer & find him staring back at her, nestled between the frozen chicken & the frozen peas...

jeffpea, your's is a good point and maybe your words are safer than mine (could be I was trolling a bit, caught me a nice one, eh Nate? :) ).

Point remains if you're aware of some activity the coach is complaining about and the crew has been letting it go for some reason then do not tell him you'll "watch for it". Tell him you see it too but it is not worth a whistle.

Hey Dan....again I dont agree with your statement "I see it but it's not worth a whistle." Assuming you work HS Varsity level games, which I think you do, for me this would not be an acceptable answer. If a HS V coach in my area is continually complaining over #24 holding then there is a good chance #24 is holding. I am not going to lock onto that player and watch every move, but I may be a little more observant. If it turns out that the coaches just complaining, then you may say "she/he is doing nothing illegal, coach."

Ok - a couple thoughts from way out West (I think I live about 1 mile further west than Juulie)...
1)if a player "palms" the ball in the back-court with no defensive pressure, why would you even see it? If there's no pressure, why aren't you looking up the court to see where the defense is and what they are doing so you have an idea of what's coming. I can honestly say that I really don't even watch that guard that closely - just sort of out of the corner of the eye - until the defense comes out to meet him/her.

2)Every call is a decision - do we call it or not. Some decisions are simply no-brainers...others are ones that can be called "game interrupters". They have nothing to do with what's going on and serve no useful purpose...even the coaches get irritated when those types of things are called - both coaches, because they know if you call it on the opponent then you will eventually call it on them also.

3)Chuck, please, please, please - no more shower stories, ok. Kinda got that "broke-backie" feel to it, ya know!!

Nate, again my point is if you ARE aware of what the coach is complaning about but have decided to let it go tell him. If A1 & B1 are banging bodies the whole game and the crew is aware of it (which they should be) do not tell the coach you'll watch for it when he politely complains his big guy is getting killed 10 minutes into the second half ("There's a lot of contact both ways coach"). If the coach complains that B1 is palming the ball in the BC don't tell him you'll watch for it. The reason being the very next time "it" happens he will rightly be all over you wondering why you didn't call it, since you told him you would look for it.

Otherwise a simple smile & "OK coach, I'll look for it" is fine.

If a HS V coach in my area is continually complaining over #24 holding then there is a good chance #24 is holding. [/B][/QUOTE]Hopefully you'll get over that idea with a little more experience.

And wise thoughts they are too.....

Even #3....

Do you want me to post the picture of Chuck and Dan in their cowboy hats and spurs? Going <i>yee haw</i>?
http://www.webdeveloper.com/animatio...commentary.gif

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

The wording I use is, "We're watching." That seems to cover all the bases.

Well, other than the fact that it's Chuck and Dan...and JR, I gotta say "No thanks" to the pictures, but tahnks for the thought! (yuck)

Oh, oh, when did JR get involved? I don't remember seeing him in the video.

That reminds me, I have to make another appointment with my therapist...

Didn't you know that Dan used to be the "Cowboy" in the Village People?

And Chuck was also on the Village People's....um....short list?

WHYYYYYYYYYEMMMMSEEEAYE!

It's fun to stay at the...

To answer #1: Why would I see it. B/c I am the T official and I am also watching for other violations. You mean as the T, you simply look down court while the ball is being inbounded? I guess since there is no pressure the throw-in-violation shouldnt be called either?? I guess you wouldnt see a dribbler move his/her pivot foot either??? WOW. I hope what you meant is that it almost never happens and thats why you arent looking for it..not because you arent watching the ball in your area, guarded or unguarded.

#2..."game interupters." Another broad stroke with a slim brush. You consider them game interupters the opposing coach considers a walk/palm/throw-in violation in the backcourt a TURNOVER. I more possesion for his/her team.

#2..."game interupters." Another broad stroke with a slim brush. You consider them game interupters <font color = red>the opposing coach considers a walk/palm/throw-in violation in the backcourt a TURNOVER</font>. I more possesion for his/her team. [/B][/QUOTE]Nate, you completely missed Rocky's point in # 1. So be it.

However, the sooner you get over worrying about what any coach says or thinks, the sooner you'll turn into a much better official.

Jmo. Take it fwiw. Or ignore it completely. Don't matter to me one way or t'other.

In the immortal words of Monty Python's Flying Circus: "That's where your claim falls to the ground." ;)

The only thing that bugs me about this situation is when the coach tells me BEFORE the game to watch something. I lose respect for him/her immediately and I am less likely to look for it.

Nate, you completely missed Rocky's point in # 1. So be it.

However, the sooner you get over worrying about what any coach says or thinks, the sooner you'll turn into a much better official.

Jmo. Take it fwiw. Or ignore it completely. Don't matter to me one way or t'other. [/B][/QUOTE]

No please tell me how I completely missed the point on #1. Rocky says that I shouldnt even be watching what goes on with player A1 in the backcourt b/c he/she is unguarded. He says I should be looking down the floor where the D is. How did I miss understand?? I think this is probably the wierdest comment I have ever heard. Why? Just b/c A1 is in the backcourt uncontested doesnt give him/her the right to violate the rules. If A2 steps inbounds then passes, according to Rocky I shouldnt be able to see that either b/c I should be lookin upcourt. To me that would be inexcusable.

#2. I dont care what the coach says or thinks, what I do care about is doing my job. I am not doing my job if I allow the rules to be broken. Palming in the backcourt is a violation of the rules and until the clause is put in the book that it shouldnt be called unless the dribbler is guarded then I think we have the responsiblity to make the call.

I read a lot on this site and from what I can gather a lot of coaches in many areas are clueless to the game. However, I have the priviledge of working in a District with experienced/veteran coaches. I have only had to put the "stop" sign up once this year. NO T's. So when a coach says can you watch #24 he/she is holding I respond with "yes..or a head nod." Why? Because I have been watching the game, but I havent yet seen holding, but if I do I will call it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

Quote:

To answer #1: Why would I see it. B/c I am the T official and I am also watching for other violations. You mean as the T, you simply look down court while the ball is being inbounded? I guess since there is no pressure the throw-in-violation shouldnt be called either?? I guess you wouldnt see a dribbler move his/her pivot foot either??? WOW. I hope what you meant is that it almost never happens and thats why you arent looking for it..not because you arent watching the ball in your area, guarded or unguarded. #2..."game interupters." Another broad stroke with a slim brush. You consider them game interupters the opposing coach considers a walk/palm/throw-in violation in the backcourt a TURNOVER. I more possesion for his/her team.

Anyone besides me think that someone is missing the point here??? I think I can honestly say that I don't "watch the ball, guarded or unguarded" at any time...I referee the defense. When the defense is close to the player (and no that doesn't just mean within 6 feet) with the ball, I will see the pivot foot move or the carrying violation that allows the player to get around the defense...if the defense is 45 feet away, I will probably miss that carrying violation. And I have never once been nailed for that by any evaluator or supervisor...again, those things are called "game interrupters" and no one wants to see them called - not even the coach who hollers about it that one time...they just like to holler.

WHYYYYYYYYYEMMMMSEEEAYE!

It's fun to stay at the

WHYYYYYYYYYEMMMMSEEEAYE!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rockyroad

Quote:

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops Quote: To answer #1: Why would I see it. B/c I am the T official and I am also watching for other violations. You mean as the T, you simply look down court while the ball is being inbounded? I guess since there is no pressure the throw-in-violation shouldnt be called either?? I guess you wouldnt see a dribbler move his/her pivot foot either??? WOW. I hope what you meant is that it almost never happens and thats why you arent looking for it..not because you arent watching the ball in your area, guarded or unguarded. #2..."game interupters." Another broad stroke with a slim brush. You consider them game interupters the opposing coach considers a walk/palm/throw-in violation in the backcourt a TURNOVER. I more possesion for his/her team. Anyone besides me think that someone is missing the point here??? I think I can honestly say that I don't "watch the ball, guarded or unguarded" at any time...I referee the defense. When the defense is close to the player (and no that doesn't just mean within 6 feet) with the ball, I will see the pivot foot move or the carrying violation that allows the player to get around the defense...if the defense is 45 feet away, I will probably miss that carrying violation. And I have never once been nailed for that by any evaluator or supervisor...again, those things are called "game interrupters" and no one wants to see them called - not even the coach who hollers about it that one time...they just like to holler.

You watch the Defense..wow. Sorry but I'm sure you are a great official (no sarcasm intended) but how then do catch any of the offensive fouls/violations??

Nate,

If the trail official is properly "trailing" the play, they can ref "one play ahead" which means that you aren't focusing on the dribbler. You can still see the dribbler out of the corner of your eye and you would still notice if they palmed the ball real bad. But why would you be focusing solely on the dribbler (especially in 2-person) when they are 9 other players that need eyes on them?

Whether or not you wish to call that unguarded palming violation is up to you. Officials at higher levels often don't call a player for a palm or travel in the B/C when they aren't guarded. They aren't "wrong" for not calling it - that it is what they have been told to do by their supervisors. It might be a more appropriate call at the high school level.... maybe, maybe not.

Even at the HS level, I'm not calling an unguarded carry unless it's so bad that it sends shivers down my spine. :p

Z

You watch the offense...wow...sorry but i am sure YOU are a great official - no sarcasm inteded here, either (honestly) - but how then do you catch any of the defensive fouls?

This is my favorite part!

HEY!
HEY!
HEY! HEY! HEY!
It's fun to stay at the
WHYYYYYYYYYEMMMMSEEEAYE!

Thanks for the advise Z. I never said that I watch the ball or the offense. As the trail official you can and should see the ball as well as the offense and D 75ft away on the other end, but they should be of no concern to you when the ball is being inbounded and in the far backcourt IMO. Rocky said that you should be looking ahead. Well if I am handing the ball to A1 to inbound, I am watching to see that it is put in play properly 1st then my eyes go to A2 who just received the ball--did he walk,palm,pick-up dribble?? I can see these things. Once it nears mid court then you pick up the action in your primary.

I didnt say that I turn to watch the offense. You on the other hand said that as the trail, in the backcourt, I shouldnt be able to see a palming violation or travelling b/c I should turn and watch the D.

Actually you did say that you turn to see what the offensive player is doing - that would be watching the offense...and I didn't say that I won't SEE the palming violation, just that I won't CALL it...basic situation where you ain't gonna see it our way, and we ain't gonna see it your way. Nuff said.

And just for Dan..."In the Navy, you can sail the seven seas, In the navy, you can put your mind at ease..."

We want you!
We want you!
We want you for a new recruit!

And let's dedicate this 1 to JR:

Macho, macho man
I've got to be, a macho man
Macho, macho man
I've got to be a macho man!

Man, I loved you (in a manly kinda way, of course) when you and the guys did that one. And when you spelled out Y-M-C-A with your arms and legs...well, I just went kinda tingly. All over.

It really is a shame you went bald. And right at the apex of your popularity too.....

Nate,
The idea being discussed is to referee the defense. If you are concentrating on the defense, you are going to see plays as they happen, as fouls begin with legal guarding position. Yes, you do need to watch offensive players for violations, but your primary area for concentration should be on the defensive players. Also, it has to be one horrible looking carry to call in the backcourt. The offense is gaining no advantage by doing it.
Dan, please tell us you're looking up the words to all of these songs...you don't actually know them do you?

Back when I had hair I played in a wedding band (true story)...sad to say I do know all these stupid lyrics...but now ladies and gentlemen, it's been a wonderful evening and it's time for our...

Last dance
Our last chance
For love...

So, were you the Adam Sandler, nice guy wedding singer, the bitter twisted Adam Sandler wedding singer, or (my favorite) the super cheesy Jon Lovitz wedding singer? Do you take requests? How about a little "In the Navy"?

Man, now we KNOW it was a loooonnnngggg time ago - it's been 15 or 20 years since JR was able to feel tingly all over.

Nah, I was the bored looking guy in the back who sat on the amp & went outside for a little...err...well you know every now and then. My career took a nosedive the night I got the band to play Stormy Monday while they served the main course & the leader was outside talking to a potential customer. He got back at us though...made us play Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree for 10 minutes.

And the joke is

Do you take requests?
Yes I do
Can you play solo?
Yes, I can
Can you play solo we can't hear you?

Too funny! I'm off to pack my gear bag and go to my game. I have a bit of a road trip tonight, but both the girls and boys from the home team are ranked in the top 3 of their class. Should be some good hoops.

I played in a wedding band. [/B][/QUOTE]All of you got inside that little metal ring?

Well, Heavens to Chuck.....

Which reminds me....Dan, did you guys ever do my personal favorite?

<i>Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
To live.

They got little hands
Little eyes
They walk around
Telling great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little feet
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet.

Well, I don't want no Short People
Well, I don't want no Short People
Well, I don't want no Short People
'Round here.</i>

Sing that one to the kids in your class, Rock-O. Kinda like a little history lesson for 'em. :D

ROFLMAO...now I have to explain to my class why I'm laughing so hard...thanks, JR!

Thought you'd remember that, Rocky. Man, Randy Newman had the PC police out after him on that one, didn't he?

My favorite part was:
<i>They got little baby legs
That stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say 'hello'</i>

The image just went through my head of Dan holding Chuck up at center and saying to the captains "And my partner tonight is...." :D

Well...at least it's tingly.

...wasn't it JR that said...

If it ain't hurtin', it probably ain't workin'. :)

Did someone request the "Navy Song"?

I joined the Navy...
to see the girls...

and what did I see...
I saw the sea.

True story.....

When I was about 7 years old, my parents took me on a Caribbean cruise out of Miami Beach. While we were passing through the Bermuda Triangle, the ship got caught in a tremendous storm and went down. The next thing I knew I was all alone on a life raft, just drifting along with the current. About 2 days after that, I was lucky enough to be washed ashore on a deserted island. Well, I lived on that island all by myself for about 10 years. One day, while walking along the beach, I saw this beautiful, voluptuous young blonde lying on the beach.
I went up to her and said "Who are you and what are you doing here?". :confused:
She said "Our boat was shipwrecked last night and I just got washed up on this beach this morning. And who are you, you long-haired, tall and handsome stranger, and what are you doing on this deserted island?".
Well, I told her my tale about also being shipwrecked as a lad, and having to live on that deserted island for the last 10 years.
The beautiful blonde said "That's simply amazing, you incredibly handsome young man, but how did you survive on this island for so long?".
I told her "Well, I caught fish from the sea and drank coconut milk, but I mainly dug for clams".
She said "But what have you done for sex all these years?".
I replied "Sex? What is sex?". :confused:

So she showed me........

Afterwards, she said "What do you think of 'sex' now, young JR?".
I said "Wow, that was great! But look at whatinthehell you did to my clamdigger!". :mad:

It's true, Dude-y, it's true......

Now that is a CLASSIC! :D

Gotta go...have a small school Varsity Boys game tonight...they are undefeated and looking to extend the streak vs. a cross-town private school rival...should be fun.

You had those dwarf clams on that island, eh?

Lost my polevaulting scholarship because of that too...... :mad: