Substitute T v. Bench T

[PIAA REF]

We were discussing this the other night at our chapter meeting. I wanted to get your guys opionion. The situation came up about when to assess a indirect T to the coach for a player coming onto the floor during either a live ball or without being beckoned onto the court. If you look in the back of the rules book (pg 73 I think) it has both a substute T area and a Bench personal area. They both mention entering the game. What is the difference? Also I thought at first that a person at the table (waiting to check in) was considered a "substitute". But then I thought if he would swear at you as you pass that the coach still should be held respnsible so he would be bench personal. It just seems that there is a gray area here. Let me know what you all think and I will let you know what our chapter decided.

Thanks

[firedoc]

I think that you are correct that there are some similarities and discrepancies between the two. In my opinion, the substitute is bench personnel until he is beckoned into the game. If that is true, than the player entering without being beckoned should be a T on the player and an indirect T on the head coach.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by firedoc
I think that you are correct that there are some similarities and discrepancies between the two. In my opinion, the substitute is bench personnel until he is beckoned into the game. If that is true, than the player entering without being beckoned should be a T on the player and an indirect T on the head coach.

Would you change your mind after reading rule 10-2--2 and casebook play 10.2.1SitB? They both seem to disagree with you.

[tjchamp]

What about 4-34-2 which indicates "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s)." The situation he sited (sub swearing as ref passes by) does not fit the case book.

[Edited by tjchamp on Jan 6th, 2006 at 12:28 PM]

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally posted by tjchamp
What about 4-34-2 which indicates "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s)." The situation he sited (sub swearing as ref passes by) does not fit the case book.

[Edited by tjchamp on Jan 6th, 2006 at 12:28 PM]

The rule you cited does say BUT NOT LIMITED TOO in there. If a kid at the table has something to say to me that warrants a T, I'm hanging the indirect on the coach too.

[tjchamp]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes

The rule you cited does say BUT NOT LIMITED TOO in there. If a kid at the table has something to say to me that warrants a T, I'm hanging the indirect on the coach too.

We agree. The "but not limited to" means these people plus... As substitutes are listed there, I would think the indirect on the coach would apply.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes

The rule you cited does say BUT NOT LIMITED TOO in there. If a kid at the table has something to say to me that warrants a T, I'm hanging the indirect on the coach too.

Yabut, that's a completely different act that is covered under a completely different rule than a sub running on the floor without being beckoned. Forget about it and answer the main question. It's apples and oranges.

A sub running onto the court without being beckoned is covered under R10-2-2 and case book play 10.2.1SitB(a). If it happens during a live ball, case book play 10.2.2 covers it. In all of those cases, the player get's a "T" and there is no indirect "T" charged to the head coach.