What do y'all do when the the defender jabs at the shooter's midsection, but doesn't make contact. You know the shooter may very well flinch, throwing the shot off, but there is no contact.

I had it happen last night, and wasn't quite sure what to do.

I got nothing. In fact, I got nothing even if there's a little contact. If I see a poke connect, the defender gets a very menacing "Hands off the shooter!" Then, the next time might be a foul, depending on whether it affects the shooter.

I have not personally had to deal with this yet, but my partner did handle the exact situation in a game this year - JV boys.

Partner calls a foul - awards two shots. Kid says he didn't touch him. Partner explained he "saw" a foul...told him not to do it again or it would be T. Didn't happen the rest of the game.

So, in essence, he called a foul (as he "saw" it) to give the kid a break and not call a T. I have no problem with how he handled it. I would also have no problem with calling a T as an unsporting act...i.e. faking a hit / strike / punch...whatever you want to call it. (Not exactly the same, but perhaps similar, to how you would handle a situation where a player drew their fist back and faked a swing at someone.)

Interested to hear how others view it.

Please don't even think of ever throwing a ballplayer out of a game just for jabbing at a shooter. A strike/punch is a flagrant act, by definition, and you'd have to toss the defender if you called that. A call like that would be a career breaker. No contact = no foul. Jabbing at a shooter's midsection ain't even close to being an unsporting "T" either imo. Jabbing at their eyes....maybe. There's a heckuva difference though.

If the jab is at the shooter's midsection, I doubt very much that the shooter even noticed it if there was no contact. The shooter would be looking at the basket.

Over-officious imo, guys.

Jurassic - I understand your point and agree, in so much as how you explained the difference in the faking a punch and jabbing actions.

However, I see jabbing at the "midsection" as a possible T depending on the play. By midsection we may actually be talking groin area. Jabbing at someone - a jump shooter in the air - at their groin section can certainly affect a shooter, IMO, whether or not there is contact. I think it could easily and justifiably be called a T.

Again, I agree with how you separated my two examples. I still like the way my partner handled our specific situation. If it was unclear, the jab in question when my partner called the foul was at the groin area...on a jump shooter...and it was close to contact. I can understand jabbing from 5 or 6 feet away being a no-call. Depends on the exact play.

Can't have a foul in this sitch without contact. I'd have a hard time with a T here too. I think I'd just tell the player to not do it again. That should take care of it.

Z

It might be a good idea on your part to run this play by whoever is training/evaluating officials in your area and get their opinion on it. Or, failing that, maybe talk to your assignor.

All I can tell you is that a "T" on a play like that would not be greeted as really being one of the all-time great calls in any area that I've seen games in. Quite the opposite aamf.....

Jurassic - Got it. Good suggestion. I will run it by some vets and rules interp. in my chapter.

Z - what if telling him to knock it off doesn't work? What if he still does it? I don't want to (and will not) tell anyone to stop doing anything unless I have something to do about it (or call) if they continue. Otherwise, IMO, you lose credibility.

I can understand your choice to just tell them to stop it. But what do you do if they don't?

Well, we can "what if" all day. I have never had a player ignore a request like that.

However, if he didn't knock it off you could move on to something more drastic. Maybe a T, but more likely a quick conversation with his coach (who would surely take care of it).

Z

Z - Telling the coach to have the player stop is a good possible solution. I know we can "what if" all day. But I don't think those are unreasonable questions that I asked. I guess the bottom line questions is...

If jabbing at an opponents midsection (my scenario - an airborne shooters groin area) isn't wrong, then why tell the player (or the coach) that the player has to stop it?

If this action is wrong, what do you call? Or what violation or foul are you telling the player to stop? In my view, it is possibly a T. Again, depending on the specific play.

I guess you and I may end up at the same destination (a possible T). We may just take different roads to get there.

I'm going to warn on a fake jab or punch, and then T it if it happens again. This is one of those areas not specifically covered by the rules that I have discretion on.

And it IS unsportsmanlike. I'm confused as to why anyone would suggest otherwise. It is done in an attempt to gain an advantage, and it doesn't have any place in basketball.

A "fake punch" isn't covered under the rules? It sureasheck is. A "fake punch" is considered "fighting" as per rule 4-18-1, and it is an automatic flagrant technical foul and disqualification as per rule 10-3-9. There is <b>no</b> discretion at all involved in that particular call. If you call a "fake punch", somebody better be heading for the bench- permanently.

You guys are getting completely carried away on this one imo. You're trying to kill a gnat with "Weapons of Mass Destruction". :eek:

This jab is not like boxing, in fact jab is not a very good description, poke is better.

I call it tagging the shooter, that little poke, will get a knock that crap off the first time, I've called a fouls on those who did not heed the warning.

JR,
To me 4-18-1 more describes a miss than a fake. Where does the fake morph to a miss? Cocking it or pulling it? :)
mick

IMO, it would depend on the discreation of the official about how severe the Poke/jab is. As stated an attempt to Punch is definately covered in the rules regardless of contact. These so called touch or tap attempts deserve a warning for sure.

A "punch" is a judgement call. However, if you do label something a "punch", then it now becomes bye-bye automatically. It doesn't matter whether you faked it, cocked it, pulled it, made contact or missed it. If you say it's a punch, then you gotta toss whoever threw that punch.

It's completely different than faking "contact".

NU1, I think you may be making a "mountain out of a mole-hill".

Would you call a foul on a defensive player for faking a shot block attempt? Would you call a foul on a defensive player for faking a reach-in attempt on the dribbler? Would you call a foul on a defender for faking a double-team/trap?

I don't think you would, or should, call those non-contact defensive actions a foul. Same for your situation as described above. No contact = no foul. I don't understand why someone would call it a foul.

Jeffpea, I don't think those actions are at all the same. I can see someone faking an attempt to steal (not a "reach in"). An attempt at a block or a trap/double team are all legal actions. I don't see the correlation at all.

Also, some seem to describe a reaching-out-and-gently-touching the shooter type of action.

The action I'm talking about is someone snapping there wrist, faking a back-handed type slap into an opponents groin. I see it very differently. I don't think I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill or using WMD's. I think it's unsporting conduct.

If you (in general - not Jeffpea specifically) are someone who says, "That's nothing, in my opinion." That's the way you see it and that's fine.

If, however, you (again general) are someone who says, "I'd warn them for that." I'm asking what you call if the action continues. They have to be doing something illegal if you're warning them. You can't (justifiably) warn them just because you don't like it. In my opinion, I'd warn them because I think it's unsporting.

"Back-handed slap" to the groin? I'd sure as heck be taking fade-aways that night! Fade-away hook shots........

:)

Gives a new meaning to fade away jumper.

Yes, poke is a better term. And interestingly, the shooter didn't complain about it, but I have to imagine if someones coming at your midsection, it would be, as a reflex, hard to ignore it.

If I was the player being "jabbed at" by the defender, and it bothered me, I'd make sure he'd cut it out. Ref wouldn't even have to deal with it. But then, that's just me.....

"The action I'm talking about is someone snapping there wrist, faking a back-handed type slap into an opponents groin."

This is the oldest, most ineffective defensive move in existence. I've been playing basketball for 40 years, and the I have yet to look at my groin while shooting.

Would you make a similar call on an identical move in a Women's game? Hmmm?

Contact should be a foul. Shooters up in the air can be affected by the slightest contact which will be knocked off balance.. This is assuming that basketball is supposed to be a finesse game.

You're missing the point entirely. This is not a legal issue. This is a game management issue.

You can clean up an awful lot of undesirable behavior just by stepping up and addressing it. Like Chuck says, a gruff "knock that off" is almost certainly going to put an immediate end to it.

Why?

Because you are the authority figure, you wear the stripes, your spurs jingle as you strut down main street with pearl handled six-shooters strapped to your hips. It's called presence. Learn to use that power to your advantage.

The majority of the time a kid is going to obey your directive for no other reason than because you're in charge and you told him to. He may wonder "what if?" But he's not likely going to ask. And you're not going to volunteer that information.

And what if he ignores you? Do you have to rush right into issuing a penalty? Heck no. You've got a long road between telling the kid to knock it off and being forced to administer final justice. You can:

• Use your captain.
• Get the coach involved.
• Get in the kid's grill.
• Up the ante by loudly informing your partner that you're watching #32 closely.
• Let him know he has your undivided attention with a couple of quick violation or foul calls.

There are myriad ways of dealing with a kid who won't take a hint that keep the T or WMD or whatever else safely in your pocket.

[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Jan 4th, 2006 at 09:40 PM]

"This is the oldest, most ineffective defensive move in existence. I've been playing basketball for 40 years, and the I have yet to look at my groin while shooting."

I may NOT look at my groin while shooting....but I'm always cognizant of its happiness & safety!

I've never had anybody do that to me or seen it used in an game.

In a P/U game, I'm sue it would solicit a comment like,

"If you hit me with that, you'll be picking up teeth."

In an organized game that I was Reffing....I'd consider it "Baiting" an opponent into an obvious fighting situation and put an immediate stop to it with a "T". (My opinion.) This stupid technique doesn't belong in basketball and if the kid misses and whacks the shooter.....you have a fight.
If the Coach argued the No-Contact Theory, I'd reply,

"It's covered under the Loose Ball Rule."

BITSY - valid points and suggestions. Thanks.

Carldog - I don't know how I would handle that in a woman's / girls game. I believe the action I'm talking about has a lot to do with location. I.E. the groin area for men / boys is a...uh...sensitive area. Now, with some expert advice from a woman, I may feel the same way about this situation in a woman's / girls game.

I'll tell you this, if a girl is doing this same type action towards another girls chest area, I'd view it the same, as I believe this area is more sensitive on a female than on a male. If any player was doing it towards another player's face, I'd view it the same.

I view the action as faking a hit...in an area that would cause discomfort / pain...and I think it's unsporting. If other's don't think it's unsporting, that's fine. I guess it's like other situations where officials choose to draw different lines. For example, after a call, a player bounces the ball with great force. Or, someone sees that as a player slamming the ball in disgust. Officials may handle that situation differently.

I'm not trying to change anyones view or opinion on this. I'm just stating what I think...and learning a little along the way.

Thanks, Yogi. Wow! :)

Sorry Spelling error - discretion: Freedom to act or judge on one's own.

So critical....

Now there's a severe penalty!

That penalty would have to come from the assignor, or somebody with almost as much power. . .

http://www.cwalsh.org/blog/vol/home/...u.jpg/Dieu.jpg

:)

A quick look at the dialog up till now
 

Nobody (a quick inspection shows) has mentioned an allied, and in my opinion more serious behavior, a staple of the playground, ducking the head and running at - but ultimately avoiding - the shooter. I will warn on the first drive-by. If the kid does it again, it's a T - if for nothing else unsportsmanlike conduct: not heeding my gracious warning.

Re: A quick look at the dialog up till now
 

Why aren't I surprised....

A 'T' for ducking the head and running at a shooter? Bad defense and a bad call.

Would you care to explain your reference to this move as a "drive-by" ? Just what does that imply?

Just make the obvious calls, Ref.

Re: A quick look at the dialog up till now
 

Nope, and I don't think anybody will want to screw up that fast break on the rebound. ;)
mick

It's a threat, a taunt
 

It has nothing to do with playing the game. It's like kicking at a player as he dribbles by and not making contact. Did something happen? Sure it did.

"Just make the obvious calls, Ref."

This is such a "juvenile" move I can't believe we're spending so much time trying to figure out how to handle it.

Simply tell the kid to knock it off - "otherwise I'll tell your mommy on you"..........one childish act deserves another...:)

Seriously, just hit the kid with a foul or two on the next few possessions when he actually touches somebody and the coach will sit him down or he'll get the message.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is behavior or an act that is unbecoming to a fair,
ethical and honorable individual.

I do not see how anyone can think that attempting to distracting a shooter by faking harmful contact is not unsportsmanlike conduct. It is not ethical, fair, or honorable to distract a player in the act of shooting by pretending to harm them.

For a minor violation I would agree that a warning might be well suited for a first time offense, but calling a T is not beyond the intention of the rules.

Thread resurrected after 3+ years!

anyone here who ACTUALLY still plays basketball knows that a little poke, which some stupid annoying *** people do, can mess up a shot. If no contact is made give a warning then next time call a foul or a T. Make sure it just isn't a stab at the ball or a fake meant to mess up the shooter which would be legal. T would be the third choice but absolutely I agree this is an unsportsmanlike play. If I was in a game and someone kept doing that to me after I warned them then believe me I'm taking the fu%ker out.
I just played so I'm a little hot. no I probably wouldn't do that but I've sent not so subtle messages to make sure it doesn't continue.

kind of cool looking at all these old posts and users who aren't around anymore.

I have a feeling that in 3 years some of these people might have changed their mind. ;)

Peace

I would think that for the most part this would be a non-issue. The shooter is concentrating on the rim, not the defender. The shooter expects to have a defender come flying at him, and the difference to that shooter in a legitimate block attempt and some kind of weird unsportsmanlike distraction attempt would probably most often not be noticed.

Oh, I Thought You Said Three Days, Nevermind ...
 

It's Lent.