I am clear that when a dribbler controls the ball with one foot on floor than jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet they cannot pivot. However, when a dribbler executes the jump stop but they get control of the ball after jumping off of one foot and then they land with a jump stop. They still can use a pivot foot right? If this is true it seems like it would be hard for an official to judge whether or not they had control with the foot on the floor or off the floor to determine if they get a pivot or not.


Thanks

Your assessment of what's legal is correct. It's more unusual for a player to gather the ball after jumping. Usually, I see the dribble end as the player steps/jumps. He must then land simultaneously and not pivot. Evenso, I don't guess a travel. Better to miss one than call one that's not there.

Regarding your second sentence, this has not been my experience at all, as a player or as an official. Using this move limits momentum much more than the other jump-stop technique; a corollary is that most people jump better off of one foot than two. I agree with your last two sentences 100%.

Lately, I have been seeing players picking up their dribble as they jump, then land on both feet then jumping/taking a step to take a shot. Legal?

Depends on what you mean by "as they jump."

If both feet are on the floor when the dribble ends, then the play is legal. If one foot is still on the floor, then the play is not legal.

Yea judgement call, they are running along dribbling, so I would say 1 foot is on the floor when they pick up the dribble. jump and land on both feet then usually jump again or do an up and under move to shoot. It looks wrong some times and other times it looks really smooth.

I get a lot of flack when I call it travel, I have it as a travel every time. Not so with some of my partners. I make a point to discuss it pregame to be sure we are on same page.

Wise words.

Many officials should be forced to write this down and carry it in their pockets at all times!

An error of ommission is better than an error of commission!

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. My statement has nothing to do with jumping off one foot or two. #1, you can't legally jump stop off two feet, only one. #2, I see the dribble end and the ball gathered as the player is jumping off his pivot, not after his pivot has already left the floor. That's what I was saying above.

If you did understand me, then I guess our experiences are just different.

I would agree with that sentiment. But the other piece of advice that I heard regarding traveling (which I think is very valid) is, "Never let the ballhandler travel into a foul."

In other words, we miss the travel -- ok, not great, but usually not a huge deal -- and then the dribbler immediately gets fouled on the drive. Ugh. Talk about waking up the coach.

Gotta get the ones that we gotta have.

It wouldn't be traveling unless he takes a step. Jumping again is legal, as long as the ball is gone before he returns to the floor.

Ok thanks, just to be sure I am understanding what you mean, The up and under move (includes a step ) is illegal, but a jump shot is OK.

Correct. In your play, once his feet land simultaneously, he can jump and release the ball but he cannot step.

Lately?
 

Lately? That's been going on for 20 years. I recommend that officials learn to do all the elements of legal jumpstop themselves. It makes it easier to recognize everything that isn't what's legal.

"Lately" mean its becoming more and more prevalent in the games I work. Why the critical tone to the thread it was answered and all is fine. Thanks

This is ironic because we just discussed this at our last meeting, and I am still having difficulty seeing it.

I understand and am fine with the jump stop. No problem. Its when the dribble stops part that I am having trouble seeing. I have played and officiated for years, but still have difficulty visioning a player stoping his dribble AFTER the jump stop procedure starts.

Any (more) help with this?

Where the player picks it up
 

I would suggest focussing on when the player ends the dribble (picks up, or 'controls', the ball). If the player is ON his/her front foot when the ball is picked up, he or she may not pivot after landing. If the player is in the air - having jumped off of one foot - pivot after landing on two feet is permissible.

Not meant in a critical way
 

Not meant in a critical way. Just surprised.

Good thread first of all. Secondly if you are having trouble with this don't sweat it at all and don't make it too big of a deal. As soon as you see a jump stop coming and it happens look at the player's feet. There is going to be a little delay in you looking down so if the foot is in the air I would just give the benefit of the doubt of the player being in the air when he/she gathered the ball. In your delayed look you see the player's foot on the floor I would determine the ball is gathered before his foot left the ground.

Also I know it looks weird and I miss it as much as anbody, but upon the gather of the ball after the player has left the ground, he may pivot and in the case of a player leading with one foot right after the other and in advance of the other it is not a walk but it looks like a walk especially if you don't know the rules.

Let me see if I have this right....it isn't a walk when they don't land simultaneously, only if they gather the ball after the player has left the ground, correct? If they land "one-two" after starting the move with the foot on the ground, it is a travel.

You got it, but just don't judge this too hard. If you have a close one-two landing with the player gathering the ball before he left the ground and the feet land side by side next to each other without one foot in advance of the other, I wouldn't worry about it. Just don't let him/her pivot.

refTN, I think you are being a bit too loose with this. More times than not - many more in my experience - the player has NOT left the floor before he does the jump stop.
I used to do it without a lot of vertical jump because I used it to get to a spot. I would jump to where I wanted to go on the floor. Many players use it at the end of a move with a lot of up (more up than to a particular spot). In my case, I would either have the ball directly in front of me with both hands or position the ball however I needed to so I could avoid the defense. Either way, my dribble has ended as I was jumping. The other things players do is loop the ball in a huge arc as they come down on two feet. This is done after the dribble has ended - before the jump stop began.
These are just my observations and I would call an additional step a travel. This is one area where the NBA mentality must be taken out because they view traveling differently.

Doesn't the NFHS have a pretty good video on jump stops and travelling? I seem to remember someone posting about it. I've been meaning to check into buying it, but it hasn't happened yet.

Tomegun, I have said this somewhere else on the forum, but there is absolutely no difference in the ruling of a walk in the NBA all the way down to the NFHS ruling. In the rule book and officials' manual for the NBA it is just explained with better detail and easier to understand format.

Sorry, you are incorrect. The NBA travel rule is certainly differernt than the NCAA and NFHS rule. There are moves in the NBA that are, by rule, legal that are a violation in other levels.

The NBA has a <b>travel</b> rule? :confused: I thought that was one of them urban legends. You know, where everybody says they know someone who has actually seen traveling called in an NBA game, but they've never actually seen it themselves.

Gee, learn something new every day.......

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 7th, 2006 at 07:18 AM]

Camron could you please give me an example because I know the NFHS, NCAA, and NBA rulings on traveling and I can't think of one that is legal in one area and not legal in the other.

Example: Airborne player catches a pass/dribble and lands on the left foot followed by the right foot such that the two feet are side by side with neither in advance of the other. In NFHS and NCAA, the pivot foot, by definition is the first to land (left). If an NFHS or NCAA player lifts that left foot and returns it to the floor, it is traveling. In the NBA, the player has the choice of pivot...can lift either foot and return it to the floor (but once chosen, has to stick with the same pivot foot).

NBA rule 10 Section XIV
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.

Also, it doesn't appear to always be traveling to fall to the floor while holding the ball in the NBA.

h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.




[Edited by Camron Rust on Jan 8th, 2006 at 04:14 AM]

Additionally, in HS and NCAA, there is no pivot foot after a jump stop (or hop-stop or whatever we want to call it). A1 catches the ball, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands on two feet simultaneously. At that point, A1 may not pivot.

However, in the NBA, the "landing on two feet" is the second "count", and A1 is allowed to pivot.

I wasn't even thinking about the falling down with the ball as part of it, but you are right about that one, but isn't the example you used where we bring into account the spirit and intent of the rule. if a kid lands with two feet one right after the other and not in advance of the other, why not just give him the benefit of the doubt and say he lands with two feet? That is what I was taught. Not to nit-pick.

It depends on the gather in both leagues whether you can pivot or not. If a player ends on the count of two in the NBA there is no pivot. If you end on the count of one you may pivot.

In college if you virtually gather the ball while in the air and land with both feet simultaneously you may pivot. If you gather it with one foot on the floor, and jump stop you may not pivot or land with a one-two count. Although I don't need to be telling you about the college rule, but I do know the NBA rule.

OK, how much experience do you have with either rule? I know you aren't IN the NBA and we all know you will be hard pressed to find substantial footage of this call on film. For HS and college I would like for you to send me a clip of someone gathering the ball while they are in the air and I will support you. Until then, the vast majority of my experience has been the dribbler gathering the ball before they are in the air. Also, if the feet land close to the same time, I agree it would be nit-picking. However, most of the time it IS called because it isn't close together. I will always tell you I appreciate your enthusiasm, but do not get caught up thinking knowing the rules word for word is a substitute for experience.

I don't know how long you have been working but I think there isn't anywhere in the country with the volume of the DC area. There are officials here who think they have this licked after 4 years, and they don't. For comparison, I think one year here in DC is about the same as 2.5 years in Las Vegas or Phoenix. How much to you work where you are at?

You are right, it is hard pressed to find a move where a player gathers the ball in the air but all the web plays I have show most plays in slow motion after you see it in real time, but when you watch it in real time you can't really distinguish so why not just give the benefit of the doubt?

Actually the only film I could show you is NBA footage. So if you can tell me how to send it to you since I am pretty much computer illiterate, I will. I mean as far as sending a film as an attachment on email or what not.

You don't give them the benefit of the doubt in this case because dribblers gather with a foot on the ground, the majority of the time, and it would give them an advantage to allow a pivot. Since it is a violation and can be used as an advantage, why would this be different from someone carrying the ball and freezing a defender?

How big is the attachment? If it isn't too big, you can send it to me through an email. What is the clip going to show me? Remember, the NBA has a different traveling rule, or at least they interpret it differently. This is one thing that will get you in trouble if you apply it to a college or high school game.

Tell me (us) how much experience you have and at what level? I want to say up front, I have seen you work (on tape) and you are good. Being a good, young official still isn't a replacement for games during a season.

What does this mean? "If a player ends". . . Ends what? You can't mean ending your dribble, b/c the 2-count starts after the dribble has ended.


What the fat does this even mean?!?! "Virtually gather"? What is that? What is virtually gathering? I literally have no idea what you are talking about. It sounds like you're muddying the waters simply to make it sound better. But it makes no sense at all.

Unless the NBA rule has changed in the last few years (and it's possible that it has), this is simply incorrect.

Chuck,

I think refTN has heard and paid attention to some people that offer catchy phrases but he doesn't have the experience to apply them. Something like a person that has yet to do their intern.
I will give him credit because I think he will be good one day, he is actually good now but he doesn't have a lot of experience. I hope he doesn't change is run or his signals to fit anyone but him, if you know what I mean. :D

That seems right. That last post almost made my head explode, tho. :eek:

Tom your are right, I listen to two very important people in my officiating career and one is in the SEC and the other works in the SEC, but does alot of his work in the NBA D-League and neither one have a different interp on traveling. As far as experience goes I have reffed over 700 games, but ironically have never reffed a regular season high school game(I was supposed to this year but I broke my leg). Finally I have reffed NBA players as well.

Chuck,
I don't know if they have changed the rule but they just don't judge too hard about whether the foot is on the ground when they gather the ball. They judge whether the gather was LATE or EARLY. LATE would mean you can pivot and EARLY means no pivot.

No offense, TN, but this is gibberish to me. Who cares if it's late (11:30 pm) or early (6 am)? Late or early has nothing to do with the rules. The rules say that if you catch the ball with one foot on the floor, etc. That's what you have to judge.

If you have a "rule of thumb" that says, "If you're not sure if his foot was on the floor, then assume it wasn't", that's fine with me. I can understand that. That's like "If you're not sure it's a 3, then it's a 2". Fine.

But early or late or virtually gathering, that's all nonsense. Ok? Whatever rule-set you're using, traveling comes down to identifying the pivot foot. Period. Find the foot when he catches the ball, and then you know if he still has a pivot after the jump.

Chuck, yes I will. Now we have to set a date! :D

[img]www.multiplex-sindelfingen.de/pix/popcorn.jpg[/img]

Doggone it, my darn popcorn jpg isn't working. It seems to me that a few weeks ago we had to monkey with a jpg to make it work. Can someone help?