At a recent game, there was no coaching box marked on the floor. As an official I was always taught that if there is no box on the floor then the home team MUST provide tape so that one can be marked. And if we as officials choose not to mark a box then we are opening the door for trouble. Does anyone know if there are Rules citations for what the correct action is to take if no boxes are marked???

Anyone have a clue???

Nate --

It's very possible that everyone is still sleeping, since I know a lot of businesses and agencies are closed today.

I don't have a rules citation for you, but I can tell you what we are told is that the game doesn't start until it's marked. There's no penalty or punishment, but there's no toss either.

Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

We have been told that if there is no coaching box on the floor by the Varsity game, then the home coach as to sit and the visiting coach can use and imaginary box to my specifications. But, we have not encountered that yet.

Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

IREFU2,
How does that interpretation "create an atmosphere of sporting behavior and fair play" ?
mick

Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

I've had several different responses. Some saying home coach must sit, some say both sit (no box), some say that game shouldnt start w/out box, etc... Is this a state by state issue or is there an overaching rule provided for by the rule book.

I had this come up this past week in a tournament game. For some reason, they had the clock set up on the opposite side of the court as usual. During the coaches/captains meeting, I told the coaches that since no coaching boxes were marked that by rule, they are required to sit today. Both coaches had a look on their face like they just lost their puppy. I then explained that if they want to be up to coach, I have no problem but if they want to be up to fuss at us, then we will have to enforce the rule. Both coaches were complete gentlemen and we had exactly zero issues.

I know some might say we should have completly enforced the coaching box rule but it worked out pretty good this time as everyone knew their perameters before we started.

In our association we have been told that if there is no marked coaching box, both coaches must sit.

Thats the second time that I have seen this response. My question is this, Why should a visting coach be punished because the home team failed to prepare the court??? Thats not right.

In the spirit of fair play, you would not give one coach something that the other can't have.

I suppose if you have a home coach that ALWAYS sits anyways, he might not want coaching boxes marked at his home court so nobody is up. Some coaches cannot coach from the bench and this would give him a home court advantage. ????

What happens if tonight at my game I decide to take the net off the goal at one end of the court?? I dont see what the difference would be. As a home team I am responsible to make sure all equiment and marking are present. What if the foul line wasnt marked?? Something should be done about the no box marked issue. At least before the game starts one should be tapped down.

Nate1224hoops,
If it bothers you so much, bring your own tape.
mick

[Note: You know you are not dealing with 4-year-olds here don't you, ...hoops?]

Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

I've had several different responses. Some saying home coach must sit, some say both sit (no box), some say that game shouldnt start w/out box, etc... Is this a state by state issue or is there an overaching rule provided for by the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]Rule 10-5-1 sez that a head coach may <b>only</b> be off their seat "within the confines of the designated coaching box". If there is <b>no</b> designated coaching box, then they can't be off the bench except for the exceptions listed. The FED posted something clarifying that, but R10-5-1 is good enough anyway.

If you don't have a box, you can't enforce a coaching box rule.

Wow, why the sacastic answer? I am just trying to find out if there is a cut and dry answer to my question about the box. If you had read the entire post you would know that I had to put my own tape down. I just wanted to know if anyone had a RULE BOOK answer as to what has to be done in the case that the boxes arent marked.

Next time I'll phone ahead Mick to see if they have the box marked or some tape I can use. That was about the only four-year old response I have gotten so far!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

Rule 10-5-1 sez that a head coach may <b>only</b> be off their seat "within the confines of the designated coaching box". If there is <b>no</b> designated coaching box, then they can't be off the bench except for the exceptions listed. The FED posted something clarifying that, but R10-5-1 is good enough anyway.

If you don't have a box, you can't enforce a coaching box rule. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the Citation. How would you handle the situation, if the boxes werent marked prior to the game?? Would you mark them yourself, punish Home coach by making him sit, or make both coaches sit??? Just curious....thanks again.

Making the phone call would be better than removing the net from one end.
mick

Nate it is not our job to mark floors, just like it is not our job to wipe the floor, clean up blood.

We can assist, but in the pregame meeting tell them there are no boxes and without a box they will sit. Then offer that if they have tape you can show them where the boxes are and they can tape it for both teams.

I was asking what would be the difference. If you show up to my home court and there are no coaching boxes and I show up to yours and there is no net. Both are lack of preparation on the home team. I was simply asking the question to some of you more veteran officials as to how you handle the situaiton when there are no coaches boxes marked...thats all.

SMDPOAOMM (spit my Dr. Pepper out all over my monitor) Now I'm ROFLMAO

Thanks. What would you do in the case that the home coach was lazy and didnt want to bother but the vistiing coach wants a box. Would you assist in marking both, just visitors or neither?? Should the visting coach be punished because home team didnt prepare for the game correctly??

It is up to the home team to mark the floors. If they say we dont have a box and we dont want tape on our floors to mark a box, then there is no box. If the visiting team says we have tape and we'll mark both and the home team allows then it is ok, if they refuse then like I said no box.

Nate, your question has been answered over and over again. if there's no coaching box, BOTH coaches sit. That's by the rule that JR posted. If you want to ask the home team to mark boxes, that's fine. But if the choose not to, then the coaching boxes do not exist. If they do not exist, coaches have to sit. That's by rule.

Thanks

If the AD says "there ain't goin-be no box", then I suppose that's how it's gonna be tonight. The visiting coach may not like it but dems-da-berries.

In Wisconsin, if they boxes aren't there and the host school for some reason has no tape laying around to get it done before tip-off, neither team gets to use one. I have never had it happen though.

Consider yourself lucky too, it is only used in varsity games here.

Really wish I had insisted on putting something down for a box before my last game. Freshmen boys - figured I could just wing it.

Well, home coach thinks he's entitled to use the ENTIRE bench (chairs stretching from the endline up to the scorer's table), I look over and realize he's standing, basically even with the lower block of the FT lane. I motion him back and tell him he can't be down that far.

Few plays later, I notice him there again - give him another point back to where the coaching box should be.

Ball goes OOB, home team gets the throw in their backcourt (1st half still), and the coach wanted to talk to one of his players. Instead of having the player come to the edge of the court, he comes on to the court. I go over, give him the stop sign, and tell him that he cannot come onto the court. I then pointed out his last player on the bench and told him he could go that far (even though it was probably too big of a box) and that this was his last warning.

Of course, later in the game, he's way down at the end of the bench, so I assessed the technical. Only problem - I reported it for "being out of the coaching box" only to get everyone giving me the look of "What the bruce are you talking about? There isn't a coaching box."

The Coaching box allowance entered the rules several years back. The floors should be permanently marked by now. No mark ==> No box ==> no allowance ==> Tape! No way.

If the school wants a box, they need to paint them on the floor. The idea of allowing one coach to have a box and the other to not have one is also ridiculous. Both or neither. And just cause you have one doen't mean you have to use it.

Box... shmox.

That might work well where you live, that does not apply in my state or any other state. Tape is allowed and all games are not played on HS floors. So your theory about not having a painted box would not fly here.

Peace

His theory that all coaches boxes must be painted or there is none wouldnt fly in any state if he were reported. Of course some gyms do not have a box painted on the floor. All HS floors should have the box painted but most ES may not and our JV and V both play at both gyms.

POWER TRIP!!!!

Well there are floors that have the coaching box already on the floor, but unfortunately the floor does not match the state adopted rule. Many are only the 6 foot box which we do not use anymore. So they have to put tape down to comply with the current rule. You would be very lucky if you could get the secondary gym where many lower level games are played around here would even have a coaching box painted at all. Those are the facts and we were told to allow the schools to put down tape if they wanted to use the box. If the coaches did not want to use the coaching box at all that was fine too. They just had to have something down if they wanted to stand.

Peace

Rut,
U.P. here, with Michigan just adopting the 14' box and with a 1/2-dozen [maybe more] refinished floors in the past 3-4 years, the schools haven't re-painted yet.

At the coaches meeting we show them a volleyball line that is 8'-10' from the 22' mark and tell them that they can go that far if they choose.

Does anyone here know the prezact distance of that volleyball line from the net/division line ? I've been tempted to take a tape to the floor and check it out just for academic curiosity. http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/conf44.gif
mick

Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

It was relayed to us by our commissioner that we are not putting tape on the floor because its not our job to do so. Therefore, the home coach will have to sit.

Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

But how can you allow the visiting coach to stand when there is no box?

Sorry but your commissioner's solution is poor at best.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

The simple fact of the matter is that during the pre-season coaches meeting/clinic, the VHSL Coordinator specified that all school need to have the coaches boxes clearly defined. This was told to the school way in advance and if they didnt comply, then the home coach would sit and the visiting coach would have an imaginary box. This goes hand and hand with the POI dealing with the enforcement of the box. No box, no enforcement. So, to counter that, the home coach will sit and I guarentee you there will be a box by the next game.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

I am from Virginia and that is the rule that I have been told and am still hearing (just called today). The reason both coaches arent sitting is b/c the floor should have been marked. It's the responsibility of the home team to do so. Therefore, you dont mark you have to sit. A visiting coach should not be punished bc of lazyness of home team. Thats how VHSL sees it. Where in VA are you from IREFU2??

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

I am in Chesapeake and you are where?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

Bristol VA. Opposite ends of the state. It's good to see that at least the rule is consistant throughout Virginia.

If the home school administration says “We are not putting a box down. You as the referee say, “Well then you better get on the PA system and tell everyone why the game isn’t starting.” I bet you’ll see some tape getting put down very quick.

Rule 2.4.1

The Referee SHALL:

Article 1:

Inspect and APPROVE all equipment, including COURT, baskets, ball, backboards and timers and scores signal.


Rule 1.13.2 says that the coaching box shall be outlined

So now let’s say that you walk out onto the floor and the free throw lane markings are not on the floor. Are you going to say well tonight I guess we’re not going to have anyone line-up for free throws. Because the home team can’t rebound so they don’t want to put the markings down.

Thats the exact reference I made earlier, only to be laughed at. It is the exact same principle. My understanding and according to VHSL rules, if the home team doesnt want a box or hasnt offered to put one down and the visiting team doesnt want one then fine play w/out. If vistiors do then home AD or someone courtside must put one down for vistors and home coach doesnt get a box but must sit. It's my undestanding that officials in Virginia are responsible to make sure the box is outlined and if not why??

I think that is too the extreme about the free throw lines and if they werent there, the court surely isnt legally marked i.e -

SECTION 4 REFEREE'S PREGAME DUTIES
The referee shall:
ART. 1 . . . Inspect and approve all equipment, including court, baskets, ball, backboards, and timer's and scorer's signals.

I would say that if that above is not approved, you have no game that night.

I looked at the diagram in the NFHS Website to confirm, and the VB attack line is 10 feet from the division line. That being said, on a standard high school court that is 84 feet long, that 10 foot line on the Volleyball court would be 32 feet from the endline. So you'd need to go another 4 feet toward the endline for one end of the box, and then go another 6 feet, or 14 feet toward the endline, depending on what your state has adopted, for the other end of the box.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

Did you mean POE?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

Yes, thanks for the correction.

Okay, Whistles & Stripes, thanks.
So that brown line, that we approve, must be something else. Perhaps it's a pretend basketball line (or pretend volleyball line) for the courts going perpendicularly to the real floor.
I appreciate the effort. :)
mick

We have to have a FT lane to play the game. We don't have to have a coaching box. We will survive.

Why didn’t you issue the coach a technical after your first warning?

Did you do a coach's pre-game conference that includes the emphasis of a coaching box?

If you did not, then isn’t one warning sufficient?

No optional coaching box after all and will the next officiating crew has to give 3 warnings before issuing a technical for the head coach violating the sit rule?

I knew I’d find a taker.

What gives you the right to say on line means less then the other?

Isn’t it our job as officials to insure that both teams have an equal chance to win by the rules ALL the rules?

Per the rule book the coaching box markings are worded the same way as any other rule about court markings.

As to the importance of the coaching box rule, I’ve yet to see an official issue a coach a “T” direct or indirect and say, “It’s only the coaching box he can stand anyway it makes no difference.”

I’ll take this one step more. Have ten people sitting down and have one of them yell something. Then have one person stand and yell. You can pickup the person standing much easier.

So yes you can get by. But you as the referee are not doing your job, you’re giving the home team an advantage by allowing them to say whether the visiting coach CAN DO HIS/HER JOB to the best of his/her ability. Something they have no right to do BY THE RULES.

The problem would be very easy to fix. The first home game have the officials walk out onto the floor and say, “Mr/Ms AD (home team management) we need to have the coaches boxes put down tonight before we start.” The referee may very well get some guff. The next set of officials walk in and the referee goes over and says the same thing. The referee may get some more guff but not as much as the first. Third set same thing. But I’ll bet you by the fourth or fifth time the officials will not need to say anything because the home team will have them down.



[Edited by IAABO_Ref on Jan 3rd, 2006 at 09:11 PM]

IAABO_Ref,
Well, so much for the game management philosophy lesson, of which I do not disagree [except for the "not doing your job" part].
Could you post the IAABO Rule of an unmarked line, or is that an unwritten extension of that same philosophy?
Thanks.
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Too Bad for the Home Coach!!!
 

It’s not an IAABO rule, but the NFHS rule I quoted above. The coaching box lines must be on the floor and it’s the referee’s job to make sure they are. So according to the rule book if the referee allows the game to be played without a coaching box they are not doing their job.

Here we wait for the lines to be put down. When the 12X12 X rule went from shall from should. We’d wait for one to be put down before the game would start. We came out and did it as a board every time and after the fourth home game of the year we didn’t have to say it too often because the schools knew it needed to be done.

Game management look at it this way, if the AD get upset he’s in the corner of the gym for 32 minutes and you are 100% backed by the rules. Now you tell the coach they can’t do something they have been allowed to do 13 games prior, something they have the right to do according to the rules. They are going to be upset on the sideline for 32 minutes and they are going to be 100% entitled to be that way.

Virginia is not doing that. No box, home coach sits and visiting coach can rome from the 28' line to the end of the bench.

Does VA use NFHS rules? If so I’d like to know how they can tell you to do that based on the rules.

Yes we use NFHS rules, but as I stated in an earlier post, we are not responsible for puting the coaches box on the floor. The home team (AD) is. We were told this by VHSL.

This is correct. I called the VHSL yesterday, thats what they told me. I believe that the NFHS needs to be more specific and much tougher on schools who fail to comply with the RULE that stats coaching boxes must be outlined, possibly an indirect T to the coach.

I have just as much right to say we can play without a coaching box as you have to say that one has to be there. IOW, I have the exact same rights that you have.

Hypothetically, let's suppose we don't have any tape.
If there's no coaching box, are we going to play? Yes.
If there's no FT lane, are we going to play? Of course not.
That's why it's obvious to anyone with a brain that FT lines are a more important issue than a coaching box.

The use of the coaching box is a STATE ASSOCIATION CONTROLLED issue. My state says that if there's no box, coaches sit. Virginia says that if there's no box, the visiting coach can stand. Neither state requires that the referee make the home team put a box down.

So you do what your state says to do and I'll do what mine says to. But don't try to bull$hit us that the coaching box is just as important as the FT lane lines

I agree. Do what your state says do and let other state do what is told by their governing bodies.

I’m not saying that VAHL isn’t telling officials that. My question is more of why?

The VAHL wants officials to not enforce or flat out overlook six rules to avoid one.

You are right as officials we don’t put tape on the floor and it is the home team’s responsibility to do so. They don’t have an option whether or not they want to do so.

It sounds to me like they are making the situation ten times worse then if they just went by the book.

The coaching box SIZE is STATE ASSOCIATION CONTROLLED. Clearly if a school has no tape you are going to play. But with a coaching box, coach you've got three chairs.

Same way MA tells its officials to use a shot clock. Same way Vermont tells its officials that the kids have to wear mouthguards. Same way MN tells its officials to play 2 18-minute halves. Need I go on?

The shot clock, mouth guards are in addition to.

The 18 minute half is used every game and both teams are equally effected the rule. Now lets say the rule said 18 minute half is used only if the home team doesn’t do something, otherwise we’ll use 8 minute quarters.

I think the "tail" is "wagging" the dog now.

IAABO_ref, you asked a very simple question, and I gave you a very simple answer. You asked how a state could impose such a rule if they are supposedly using FED rules. The answer is that each state can impose whatever frickin' rules they want. The individual states don't go to the FED and get special dispensations for their adaptations. They can do whatever they want. That's the bottom line. The comments that you made above are irrelevant to the question that you yourself posed.

You don't like the rule? Don't work in that state.

I guess the question that I looking to get answered is why? Has VA had a big problem with school refusing to put coaching box lines down that they felt they needed to put in such a rule?

The answer to your "why" is because we are enforcing the coaching box to the max! All of the school in our area have them, so its no an issue. The underlying issue is keeping the coaches in them. In my area we have had coaches barking at officials outside of the box, sitting there chairs way outside of the box as well as coaching way outside of the box. To make sure the enforcement of the box works, we had to state that for some reason there is no box, we are not going to put tape on the floor and the home coach will sit and the visiting coach will stand and have a box to the officials specifications. Bottom line is, IT IS NOT UP TO US TO PUT LINES ON THE COURT for coaching boxes or anything else. Its the home teams responsibility.