Could someone tell me what is the correct method of the 10 sec. visual count for the outside offical in a 2 man system.
Thank's Guys.

Just like any other visual count. Some prefer the hand closest to the table, but that's not mentioned ion the NFHS manual.

I try to use my hand opposite of the dribbler, that way I have a good view of what is going on.

All the systems are the same regardless of what officiating system you are working under. Signal mechanics do not change with the type of crew you have.

Peace

Sorry Guys I messed up. CORRECTION
I forgot to mention during a free throw.
I know, I know, don't say it.

It should be an opening and closing of the hand, at your side. Use the hand closer to the division line so as not to "disconcert" the shooter.

Flick of the wrist, pulsing wrist, I've heard it described a couple different ways.

Basically you put your hand by your side, and make a fist, open your hand. Over and over.. As stated, use the hand closest to midcourt, this is the hand you should also raise to chop the clock.

I don't even count when I do it to be honest. I've never called a 10 second violation and don't plan to either.

OK Snake-eyes. Just remember what you said when next week in a tight game and coach has no more time outs and he tells shooter to hold the ball while he sets up his defensive play before the shot...and this takes up to 20 seconds while he is discussing this with 2 of his guards near the bench who remain on the playing court...it's gonna happen...just wait and see.

And I, too, will never get to ten. My wrist flicks are not exactly one second apart, either. 19 seasons, never had such a violation.

I've never had one either. I did witness one a few years ago. It was about 12-13 before he made the call.

Mark,

Any holiday tourneys? I'm working the next two nights. Boys, 2-person (ugh). I'll be glad when I never have to work another 2-person game. I should've called the school and asked them if I could bring 3, but since there's a game behind ours, I didn't bother.

--Rich

Why would the coach want to lose a freethrow oppurtunity in a close game? Even though that's never going to happen, I will tell you right now what I would do if it did. I would go to the shooter and let him/her know that he/she only has 10 seconds to shoot the ball.

And then what?

I had never called one either....until I had a kid take what seemed like forever to shoot a throw. The next time, I counted and got to 13 before he shot. I warned him as you suggest. The next time, I got to 12...TWEET!

Wanna know what the coach said?

"I told you sooner or later somebody was going to call it on you!"

1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..9 1/2..9 3/4.."shoot the dang ball already!"..9 7/8.....

See. That's what's wrong with us officials. We won't call it like it should be called. Just blow the whistle, hold up ten fingers, and get ready for the tongue lashing to begin. Just be proud you are the only one in the building who seems to know the rules.
That's like a coach who runs out onto the floor screaming at you for a call you made. Are you gonna tell him now get off the floor and quit saying those nasty things about me...please coach get off the floor you are making me look bad...please coach this is reeeeally getting out of hand.
NO. You will ring him up in a heartbeat. You will not beg him to get off the floor. If you do you will look like an idiot with no guts.
Just blow the whistle when it is warranted.
(I do agree that a preventative measure might be in order if the kid is just slow, but if he is deliberately delaying the game to catch his breath...ring him up.)

Put me down in the "wrong official" column too fwiw. I'd never dream of calling this particular violation at exactly the 10 second mark.

How do you call 3-second violations? Right by the book also?

Simply if the player remains in lane more than 3 sec and is making no attempt to exit lane. I will voice "LANE" to them when they stop in the lane to allow them the opportunity to exit. If no movement to exit I give them a second voice "LANE", again if no movement to exit then it's a violation. (They have been in there approximately 4.5 seconds at this time) I don't have a problem with calling lane violations but that's another thread...

I'm pretty sure there was also some humor in this thread

Now you got me confused.....

What happened to "See. That's what's wrong with us officials. We won't call it like it should be called" or "Just blow the whistle when it's warranted".

What's your rationale for calling one time violation strictly by rule and then not calling a different time violation the same way?

I agree, call the three second violation because a player could be gaining an advantage by camping in the lane and call it at 3 seconds. If a player is taking more than 10 seconds on a free throw, he isn't gaining a huge advantage, he still has to shoot the ball. The rim won't move closer if he waits longer.

In this case, the free throw violation seems to be more lenient, but is and should still be called at 10 seconds.

I agree, call the three second violation because a player could be gaining an advantage by camping in the lane and call it at 3 seconds.
[/B][/QUOTE]Please note that I never said that <b>I</b> would call that particular violation right at 3 seconds. I personally wouldn't call it in all situations. Or even in most situations.

I was just wondering why Cager was using a different philosophy for each of the calls.

I agree with you again, I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone calls or should call right at 3 seconds or every time. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, I call it right by the book (NFHS & CBOA) and I use a 4 second count to be sure it was a legit 3 for the violation.

If the player is making an attempt to get out of the key, no violation and if possible or necessary, use preventive measures by warning the player(s) before reaching the 3 second violation.

What is the advantage?

The advantage gained by the offense changing the way a defense would defend if the offensive players were in the key longer than allowed.

Officials pre-game to include judgment calls to be the same through out the entire game, right?

Answer: an inconsistent official.

Haven't called a three second violation in a varsity game in 2 seasons now. Do these really happen often?

How many technical fouls have you called for flopping?

Haven't called a three second violation in a varsity game in 2 seasons now. Do these really happen often? [/B][/QUOTE]Yup, about once every 3 seasons.

Get ready, Rich. Sometime this year..... :eek:

In 14 years I have never called a 10 second violation on a free throw. I have had one youth game that was running time (except for last minute) where the coach purposely asked the player to wait as long as possible to consume time. In that case I had to watch how long he took so there would be no advantage.

Violating the 10 seconds for free throws does not result in an advantage so I was told early in my career to not call it, ever. I suppose if the player begins making a travesty of the game you could ask them to shoot and then use the violation as a last report. I have never had to do this.

One of the big reasons to not call it is that it is seldom abused. If this were a bugger problem with people taking a long time then perhaps I would have to rethink this.

I have even had a coach ask during a free throw "How long does the player get?" After the throw I told him matter-of-factly "As long as he wants coach."

That one could be a mistake imo. What are you gonna do if he tells one of his players to just stand at the FT line and just hold the ball? You're also admitting to that coach that you're ignoring a very plainly written rule.

I think it's better in these case to just nod your head to show the coach that you're listening, or make a very brief comment like "I'll watch for it, coach". Iow, it's OK to do it but don't admit it.

Perhaps I should have used the phrase "As long as he needs" so that the coach could not use a literal interpretation against me.

I do agree that there are times when we tell coaches that "we will look for it" when we have a different view of what is happening on the court. This is okay because we are not really misleading them.

In this case I think it is a bad idea to say "I will look for it." The coach knows you are either ignoring the rule or cannot count to 10. If you tell him that you are counting and do not then you leave him thinking that you cannot count (or worse that you lied to him!)

In this particular game I knew the coach would not try and use this against me and what I was doing was explaining why the player was allowed longer than 10 seconds to shoot. By being honest I allowed him to stop complaining about my "poor counting skills."

Rich you should move to Tennessee. We get paid poorly but you would never have to see another 2-man game again in your life.

I keep a closer watch during running-clock games, but it usually takes more time to call the violation, set up team B for a throw-in, pause the game to explain the violation to A's coach, re-set B for a throw-in, etc. than to just tell the player to hurry up and shoot.

I worked in the Knox Ridge Association near Knoxville for three seasons, from 1994-1997 while I was in graduate school at UT. Naturally, we worked 2 person then.

You still have to do GV/BV doubleheaders? You mention getting paid poorly -- back then the pay was really low, something like $60 for the varsity doubleheaders. At the time, the pay was identical for a single varsity football game in TN. And if you worked a good girls' school, like Oak Ridge, they'd run you ragged with a boys varsity game still to follow. You really earned your money there. I would like working all 3-person, but I like working a single game, too.

Ah, memories.