New York - Top 10 Girls Championship on 12/22/05

[All_Heart]

Warning, All the below is what I heard through someone else, so this might not have happened as told.

12/22/05
Championship game of tournament in ARIZONA.
Collins Hill vs Christ Of King (Varsity Girls)

1 minute left of game

Collins Hill star was passed the ball ahead of her on a fastbreak. (She had 38 points and 4 fouls at this point) It was going out of bounds and she reached out and hit the ball with her fist to her teammate. The official stopped play and called a technical for hitting the ball with her fist.

Now my question is (if this is actually how it happened) does New York have a different state rule for hitting the ball with the fist or did the official deam her to be doing something else. Or maybe he called a violation and the player smarted off to her. Did anyone see this game and this play?


[Edited by All_Heart on Dec 25th, 2005 at 12:09 AM]

[BktBallRef]

What she did is a violation by rule.

Who knows what she said next?

[Jimgolf]

The game was in Arizona. Christ the King won in overtime.

The link to the story follows:

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/prep...eking1223.html

Key moment, according to the article,
"Collins Hill junior All-American Maya Moore was called for a technical foul when she tried to pop the ball loose with Christ the King in transition. The questionable call resulted in Moore's fifth foul - the officials claiming she used her fist to punch at the ball."

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...llinshill.html
The Atlanta Journal describes it like this:
"The game was tied when Moore fouled out on an unusual play. Going for a loose ball, she punched it to a teammate and was called for a technical for closing her fist, according to Collins Hill coaches. Christ the King hit both free throws. The Royals would not relinquish that lead, nor their status as the best team in the country."

[Edited by Jimgolf on Dec 24th, 2005 at 08:50 PM]

[All_Heart]

Thanks for the links Jim.

This is how I was told it happened. I would've hoped that the calling offical's partners got together and told the calling official the correct punishment for this play. I've been reffing for a long time now and I've never seen a player hit the ball with their fist. Has anyone ever called this in a game? I'm glad this didn't happen in my game at the end of an important championship game! Isn't this one of the original Naismith rules?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by All_Heart
Has anyone ever called this in a game? I'm glad this didn't happen in my game at the end of an important championship game! Isn't this one of the original Naismith rules?

I've had the punching of the ball in rec leagues - about once a year. I call it every time. I let it go when there's no pressure and the guard, in the backcourt, wants to do something funky for a dribble or two.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by All_Heart
Thanks for the links Jim.

This is how I was told it happened. I would've hoped that the calling offical's partners got together and told the calling official the correct punishment for this play. I've been reffing for a long time now and I've never seen a player hit the ball with their fist. Has anyone ever called this in a game? I'm glad this didn't happen in my game at the end of an important championship game! Isn't this one of the original Naismith rules?

I've had this happen at many levels, once in a while by an angry player, usually by a player who has a sudden, creative urge to propel the ball farther than otherwise might be possible.

I always call the violation - every player has to understand that it's inherently too dangerous in this game, as is kicking at the ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
I always call the violation - every player has to understand that it's inherently too dangerous in this game, as is kicking at the ball.

I didn't realize that attempting to kick or punch the ball was a violation.
Has basketball adopted a prohibition of dangerous play like soccer?

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I didn't realize that attempting to kick or punch the ball was a violation.
Has basketball adopted a prohibition of dangerous play like soccer?

Read harder. I am saying that, because striking at the ball with a closed fist, or kicking at the ball, are inherently dangerous, we make succeeding in either case a violation. The message is that you can't win by doing so - so don't.

[Nevadaref]

Doesn't that seem backwards to you, Jeff?
The player is penalized for swinging (or kicking) and successfully making contact with the ball, but the less-controlled action of swinging and missing, which should be more dangerous, is not against the rules!

I'm not disagreeing that the rationale behind the violations is that the NFHS considers those dangerous actions. I am merely pointing out the irony.
In NFHS basketball, no contact = no violation. (Excepting excessive arms and elbows swinging or fighting.)


At least in soccer playing in a dangerous manner can be penalized whether or not contact occurs with another player or the ball.

I guess that's the NFHS for ya.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Doesn't that seem backwards to you, Jeff?
The player is penalized for swinging (or kicking) and successfully making contact with the ball, but the less-controlled action of swinging and missing, which should be more dangerous, is not against the rules!

I'm not disagreeing that the rationale behind the violations is that the NFHS considers those dangerous actions. I am merely pointing out the irony.
In NFHS basketball, no contact = no violation. (Excepting excessive arms and elbows swinging or fighting.)


At least in soccer playing in a dangerous manner can be penalized whether or not contact occurs with another player or the ball.

I guess that's the NFHS for ya.

Gioco pericoloso! Dangerous play . . . my little kid played on a mostly Sicilian youth soccer team . . .

While a punch or a kick without contact isn't a violation, per se, it sure is a technical foul if it's meant as a threat. I have had that happen more than once. Usually some teed-off player, looking for an outlet.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

[/B]

While a punch or a kick without contact isn't a violation, per se, it sure is a technical foul if it's meant as a threat.
[/B][/QUOTE]Actually, the rules say that a punch or kick without contact is an automatic flagrant technical foul. Whether it's meant as a "threat" or not is irrelevant.

NFHS rules 4-18-1 and 10-3-9.

Better have good judgement on that one, though.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 27th, 2005 at 11:05 AM]

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

While a punch or a kick without contact isn't a violation, per se, it sure is a technical foul if it's meant as a threat.
[/B]

Actually, the rules say that a punch or kick without contact is an automatic flagrant technical foul. Whether it's meant as a "threat" or not is irrelevant.

NFHS rules 4-18-1 and 10-3-9.

Better have good judgement on that one, though.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 27th, 2005 at 11:05 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

I have good judgement. So can you and everyone else.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
[/B]

I have good judgement. So can you and everyone else. [/B][/QUOTE]How so?