Ok, I'm a second year ref, and by no means anywhere near the professional I am striving to be. The question I am having you answer is: at halftime, I will usually ask the Varsity officials about my first half and if theres anything I can improve on. Thats on the occasion that when I meet the Varsity officials and their personable and easy to talk to. Then theres the other situation when I'm quite and trying to reflect on my first half. Then I hear GOOD FIRST HALF... BUT!!! Why is there always 1 Varsity official who thinks hes the next to go into the NBA and can talk to me like I'm an idiot and question my calls down to the littlest thing. Am I being to forward to say I would like to get info when I ask for it, Or just bite the bullet and take the tongue-lashing?

If you truly want to learn, then listen to the more experienced officials. Take what you think is their good advice and ignore and discard the rest. All they're trying to do is help you.

Btw, I don't like the idea of having other officials in the dressing room at half-time. That's when you and your partner(s) need time to go over the first half amongst yourselves. That's not the time and place for critiqing imo; after the game is a more appropriate time.

Not everyone can give criticism constructively. The official may have the best of intentions but just can't express it so that he doesn't come across like a hardass. I would just take it with a grain of salt. Not much else you can do unless you tell him to shut up.

Unfortunately, not all veteran officials have mastered being helpful AND being tactful. Just nod your head and say, "thanks for the information." If you think it's good info, add it to your game. If you don't think it's good info, just let it go in one ear and out the other.

Even though it sounds like this official isn't a great teacher, he/she is under no obligation to help you and you should at least appreciate the fact that they are taking the time to try to give you some help.

Z

Like it has been said, halftime is not a good time for this. It really isn't fair (fair) to you when you are given advice at the half.
Unless the other person is hearless and enjoys running others down, it is tough to give advice. I wouldn't want to come off as someone who knows it all; it isn't like someone just starts doing a good job, everyone has been where you are.
I like to be honest and straight with someone so I think the best approach is to deliver the message like I care about the official and the game. If I know someone cares about me and aren't just dogging me out, I don't mind if they cuss me out (I know everyone doesn't like that). As long as they are delivering the message for my good, it isn't totally about the delivery, moreso the message.

YMMV

I'm a new ref also
 

First year. I also get advice from my senior officials about a number of things (and during the game, too). It is part of our learning curve. Don't let it get you down. As was mentioned earlier, get from it what you can, discard what you already know, and always be a good listener. It's better that they offer us advice than just let us twist in the breeze as we make mistakes. And, there is nothing wrong with offering "why" you made the call you did. Don't make it argumentative, but, keep it more like a thoughtful Q & A. Most senior officials are truly trying to help.

[Edited by lmeadski on Dec 24th, 2005 at 05:54 PM]

A tad tough to do after the game when you have to be on the court at 15 minutes, and depending on the length of the frosh/JV games, they might not even put that much time up.

I think it is much easier, and more helpful for them since we are sending in an evaluation, to get a few things at the half. We get to see if they can apply it, and they don't get ambushed with us running to do our game and then blindsided when they see the evaluation.

Being a second year official, I take the following approach. Do not give me advise unless you have an evaluation form in your hand. Why do I say this? A person cannot remember everything and most focus on the bad. You may come to me discussing your pet peeves. The form which will have comments written on it shows the person being evaluated the area where work in most needed. The comments will displaying genuine concern about the job being done.

I approach officiating like a job. I cannot improve my work unless, I have some paperwork where I can go reference to stay the course.

Being a second year official, I take the following approach. <font color = red>Do not give me advise unless you have an evaluation form in your hand</font>. Why do I say this? A person cannot remember everything and most focus on the bad. You may come to me discussing your pet peeves. The form which will have comments written on it shows the person being evaluated the area where work in most needed. The comments will displaying genuine concern about the job being done.

I approach officiating like a job. I cannot improve my work unless, I have some paperwork where I can go reference to stay the course. [/B][/QUOTE]Wow!

All I can say is you're gonna be very happy person then because I don't think too many officials will be going out of their way to try to help you again after the first time you come at 'em with that one. I know I'd tell ya <i>Sayonara</i>.

I can tell you when I was in your shoes I always asked for opinions. I learned something from everyone that gave advice. I learned that I either should listen to most of what they had to say or I learned not to listen to them at all (usually after I saw them work). If I were you I would just listen and take what works and throw out the rest. If you keep hearing the same comments over and over again, you probably are doing something that stands out.

Peace

The problem with what you are saying is the fact that is not going to happen in the real world. It might be a pet peeve of yours, but it is not something most officials are going to do. One reason is I might not have even brought something like that to a game. If I am working a game behind you, I am not coming to the game to evaluate you as an official. I might not have any time to see much of your game at all. Also, most of the points I will give you will be one or two things. I am not going to give you a laundry list of thing unless I know you very well or I was at the game just to evaluate you. Remember in most situations that veteran officials are going to see newer officials are when we are doing a game too. We have to get ourselves ready for that game and looking at a newer official is not something that is the priority. Many times when I am in the stands watching an official, I might be with my partners and we are talking about our game and things we might need to worry about. I will admit that I am not always paying that close of attention to the officials unless I know the official personally.

I approach officiating as a job as well. I also know that not all advice is going to be in writing. I would not want to miss out on advice just because someone did not write it down. I know when I go to camps many things are never written down. You listen to the clinician and you move on.

Peace

Focus on the content of the message and ignore the delivery. You can choose what you want to take from it and ignore what you don't.

OUCH! :(

In Arizona the varsity officials are expected to turn in evaluations on every JV official working in front of us.

We are asked to see at least half their game, discuss things and turn in an online evaluation within 24 hours.

The JV official is asked to supply us with their info, and stay for our first half and are encouraged to come in with us at halftime.

This usually means we intently watch the 2nd quarter, take notes and go over a few points briefly at halftime. We spend the 3rd quarter seeing how they adjust, pregaming for our game, and then go in to dress after the 3rd quarter ends.

This mentoring program is a component of the criteria for post season games.

JV officials that do not take part do not advance

As already stated, take all the advice you can get. Take note of the pointers you like and agree with and discard the things you don't agree with. Best bet is just to listen and not talk back.

Good luck to all working tournaments!!

I'm not saying that I dont ask for info or that I dont listen closely to what the varsity officials are saying. BUT... theres always the 1 who imposes is will on you and lectures you about the nitpickety "new word" things. I usually go with the flow and take what I want from the conversation and throw the rest of the garbage out. Its just aggrevating sometimes to have someone, when possibly you didnt have your best half, come in and start on you thats all. I'm sure we have all been there!

Have you considered that if all he can find is "nick-pickety" things, then overall, you're doing a good job and this is a chance to refine the minor details of your game. "Nick-pickety" things separate the great officials from the good ones.

Thanks!

Wow!

All I can say is you're gonna be very happy person then because I don't think too many officials will be going out of their way to try to help you again after the first time you come at 'em with that one. I know I'd tell ya <i>Sayonara</i>.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you.

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you. [/B][/QUOTE]Well, I don't have an evaluation form with me.....so.....I won't make any further comments to you.

A few weeks ago, I arrived at the game site to find that all both JV games were being played in front of the varsity contests. The girls JV game was in the 4th quarter. As I sat and watched, the game went to OT. The R came out started to put the ball in play per the AP arrow. I stepped out of the bleachers and whispered to the lead, "You always start an OT with a jump ball." He would have been pretty damn stupid to have siad, "I'm sorry but you don't have an evaluator's form, do you?"

Evaluators' use evaluation forms. In many areas, the officials who work the game after you probably won't. Even if forms are used in your area, to take the stand that you can't learn from someone unless they have a form is very closed minded.

You should forget ever going to a camp, as I can guarantee you that everything that you're told will not be on a form.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 25th, 2005 at 01:13 PM]

To those who commented to my post. Correct me if I am wrong here. There were two portions to the post. 1.) He asked for feedback. 2.) He did not ask for feedback. I was referring to that portion of the original post in which the poster, stated there were times when he as reflecting on his own first half and SOME varsity officials would give their advise without him asking for it. This is why I said what I said in the post. DO NOT give me any unbeseeched advise is all I am saying.

Reading comprehension is IMPORTANT!!!!

With this attitude, don't expect much. For God's sake, you are a ROOKIE. Act like one. When someone with 20 years experience has something to say, act like a rookie and listen to him.

Evaluation form? I need one of those to give you 1 or 2 tips you can take and apply to your game? If that's the case, then just be a rookie with X years experience X years from now.

And if you don't ask, I am not going to be coming at you with anything anyway. But if you ask for a pointer or two, I'll be right there with something that can help you. Which IS better?

That's not actually all you said. Here again is what you said.

Those comments are pretty dumb, as others have pointed out. I'm not going to pile on, but I'm also not gonna let you get away with revising history.

There are many times when I am asked by newer officials "What did you see?" or something to that effect. My reply is always the same, "Are you asking me because you want to know and we can talk about it or are you asking me because you are supposed to as a newer official?" I try my best to never question judgment but I will be honest in what I observed. I always have a notebook woth me so I can write down time and what happened at any point in the time I observed. If an official disputes what I saw (i.e I didn't do that, or that's not what happened", then I am done with the discussion. I learned this approach from camp and it has helped me personally and with critiquing other officials. If I'm not asked by someone and I've seen something which should be critiqued, I will offer my thoughts and I try to do it in the form of a question (i.e. I noticed you tend to come out on the floor as the lead in the frontcourt on rebounduing action, are you aware of that? Is there a reason for it?" Our JV officials are asked to stay through at least halftime of varsity contests and our varsity officials are asked to observe as much of the JV contests as possible. The purpose is to create dialogue situations and offer fresh constructive critiques. We are then asked to convert those thoughts to writing within 24-48 hours and submit those evals to our evaluation committee. It is successful for the most part but more is gained in those verbal discussions.

The problems I see most with JV officials is that they haven't quite mastered advantage/disadvantage. They call a lot of unnecessary fouls and then come into the locker room and apologize for getting done late because they had so many fouls. Yet I would never say anything unless asked -- if they ask if they called a good game, then I would point to specific instances (especially if a bump from behind on a rebound was called when the defense cleanly clears the board) to try to get those officials thinking about how not every bit of contact is a foul and how that affects the flow of a game.

I care little about fine tuning in subvarsity games because most of the officials I see need some major work in at least one area. Yet, with no association and no formal evaluation process, this is not surprising.

--Rich

Well, I understood you. My reading comprehension is fine.

I also fully intend to follow your wishes and <b>never</b> give you any unbeseeched advice on this forum again.

Just wondering though.....if you already know everything and don't need any unbeseeched advice, feedback, answers,etc., why do you even bother coming to this forum? :confused:

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 25th, 2005 at 02:42 PM]

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Arrogance + ignorance = a very short officiating career.

You want feedback on an official form?

Bring an evaluation form, with all your personal info already filled out, a stamped, addressed envelope and hand it to the varsity official and say, "Would you please be kind enough to fill this out, I'd really appreciate it."

We are not there for you, we are there for our game, and if we feel like giving back to the vocation and mentoring you, grin and bare it.

You want more out of that exchange, the onus is ON YOU not the officials that have earned it already.

And by what reason should they be obligated to provide a form? While they just might have one, you'd be best served by bringing your own form for them to use or take notes as they speak. They owe nothing to you and if they're willing to offer anything, say thanks. Its tough enough to get honest and helpful feedback (other than "yeah, you looked fine") without putting up artificial barriers.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Dec 25th, 2005 at 03:46 PM]

I think many of us understand what is being said here. That is not the point. If you are a rookie and you have not established yourself in this thing that is a hobby, you are not going to have a say in how people always help you. I also do not see the big deal if someone gives you advice that you did not ask for. Be happy that any advice is being given to you in the first place. I know many officials do not give a damn and will not say anything at all to you, while they see you struggle and never learn simple lessons. If you have not noticed many people here were rookies and they knew they did not know anything. If someone gives you advice, take it. I know when I was a rookie I did not care who gave me the advice. I was also the type that asked follow up questions, hung around more experienced officials to watch their games and asked more questions. I always looked at myself as being a sponge and wanted to hear as much feedback as possible. See officials like both the original poster and yourself will be the first to complain that you did not get a shot. Your interaction with veterans will determine you opportunities in the future. If you just listen and take in what is said, you just might get helped out one day be them either giving you a recommendation or bringing you along with them to bigger and better opportunities. You do not see rookies in any pro sport being respected off the bat do you? That is because they have to learn the ropes and learn what is expected of them. That does not apply to sports; it could apply to just about anything if you think about it.

Peace

Bull. You wrote:

"Being a second year official, I take the following approach. Do not give me advise unless you have an evaluation form in your hand."

I'm sorry but could you please put that on an evaluation form so that I can take it back to the association?

Actually, I'm not even going to address those comments. This isn't about the situation I witnessed. It's of no consequence, since you missed the entire point of the post anyway. We discussed some things with the JV crew between games. Unlike you, they were receptive to what was said. No form was necessary.

Again, don't waste your time on camp. Because when they chew your butt, it won't have anything to do with a form. Good luck! You're sure gonna need it.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 25th, 2005 at 05:15 PM]

I think this just goes to show how SOME young officials are part of a new breed. They want to dictate how they get feedback but after 5 years, they will be EXPECTING varsity games no matter what!

I can't imagine a situation where a veteran official will go along with you telling him/her that you don't want any advice unless it is on a form.

I got to a game a few weeks ago early and the JV official was working alone. I got dressed and helped him for 3.5 quarters. At halftime he asked me what I had and I told him nothing because we were trying to work uphill because of him starting alone. After the game, he asked again and I told him two things. He argued about both of them and I told him the conversation was over. He tried to continue and I told him we were done and I had to do the pre-game for my scheduled game. I say this because regardless of delivery I think a lot of us know it is hard to give advice to young officials in this day and time.

I personally, do not know any of you who post here. I made a statement from my perspective. It is not going to change anything. You have taken your position, I have taken mines. If you choose to ostracize, an individual because their views are different from yours. It is your decision.

"Worse then having an opinion is having one and not speaking it"

As a new ref
 

and, being 43 years old, I've learned about not knowing nearly as much as i thought I did. Any refs, young and old, seasoned or new, ought to be open to suggestions on how to improve. We ref because we love the game (at least, that is why i ref). I certainly don't do it for the pay!! Last words: anything another ref tells you that you already know is great reinforcement of what you are doing right. Any advice on how to improve, after you've processed it (thought about it), will only make you better. Advice is a win-win. Rock on, brothers!

Well at least you already have the shirt when you start working at Footlocker.

Re: As a new ref
 

And that's the best attitude to have, Ski. An attitude such as truerookie's will get back to the assignor, which isn't a good thing. OTOH, an attitude such as yours will also get back to the assignor and that's a VERY good thing.

truerookie, we didn't ostracize you, you ostracized yourself with your comments and your attitude.

LOL BZ!

The problem many officials have is that they think every opinion is equal. It just isn't so. If you're a rookie and I have 20 years experience and I'm a respected official, my opinion means more than yours and the best advice you could receive is to stop acting like a jackass and listen to those who know more than you do. Like others, this is the last thing I'll say to you.

Who came up with that tripe?!?! I prefer: "Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

It's not a matter of ostracizing someone. It's not personal either. It's a matter of why should anyone here waste any more of their time with you. You very obviously don't think that there's anything worthwhile for you to learn on this forum anyway. For the life of me, I really can't figure out why you even bother posting here.

Just ignore us, the same way that you chose to ignore people in your association that were trying to help you. Hey, that's the way you wanted it anyway, right?

How about "Opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one."

While I can understand what all of you are telling truerookie, I think a lot of you are forgetting something... who has NEVER acted this way? Nobody wants to show their lack of knowledge! If you are new at something it is almost certain that you will not be that good at it, but you don't want people to rub it in.

Of course, "don't give me advice if you don't have an evaluation form in your hand" completely defeats the purpose of that anyway... but I know most of you will remember, at some point in your life and career, that you thought you knew way more than you did - if not for the only purpose of not looking like too much of an idiot.

That said... most of you can also testify that you've done a great deal of learning from more experienced officials; I'm just saying I don't think it's being very honest to pretend you never acted this way.

Did I ever think that the old guys were nuts? Yes.

Did I have the attitude "Don't talk to me, put it on paper?" No.

There's a difference.

Welcome to the forum, HJ!

Who has never?

About 99% of us that have grown as officials and have been doing it for a long time.

There is a big difference between a bit of false bravado and building a brick wall that you will likely never overcome.

There has not been one response that said, every bit of advise is a golden nugget, but it's been unanimous that you should be open to hear it.

The first thing I say to a JV official that watched my first half and came in with us at halftime is,"Do you have anything for us?"

I've been in the dressing room at tournaments where we have 3 crews in there and that same question ALWAYS comes up from the crew working the game.

Thanks, Bkt.

I know there's a difference (and a notable one) but I think you might agree that there are very few people who will admit they know nothing publicly... of course, people who get past it knew they didn't know much; if you don't know you don't know what you're talking about, you will get a hell of a shock when you find out.

I'm definitely not thinking truerookie's attitude is correct, but most people I know have a little pride that prevents them from taking everything they're told in the exact context (that is, advice.) You'll always take something personally when someone comments about your performance at anything.

BZ, I know what you mean, I understand what everyone is saying; I'm just saying that I will never believe anyone who says they've never thought they knew more than someone who gave them advice. It's just natural.

A Different angle
 

in your esteemed opinion, when is a newer official deemed ready to ref varsity?

No, I sureashell never did act that way. If I hadda acted that way when I was a rookie, the senior officials in my association woulda had my azz right out the door before I knew what hit me. I would have been given one chance to change my attitude, and if I didn't do that in a hurry I'd have been gone. And if an official who works for me now acts this way, then he'd better change his attitude in one helluva hurry too. It's not a matter of not wanting to show your lack of knowledge; it's a matter of not wanting to gain any knowledge. That's a helluva difference imo. Guys like this just aren't worth the bother to an assignor. If they don't want to accept input <b>or</b> criticism...buh-bye.

I've been at this avocation for a fair amount of time. I'm still trying to learn too. I also still listen to and ask for other official's opinions, no matter how long they've been officiating. I've gotten a new or fresh slant or ideas before from people who maybe didn't really have that much experience. I'd never dream of telling anyone who was trying to help me to get lost.

Maybe I should add to my point - if most people didn't act that way (possible, probable), meaning, if you didn't tell someone to get lost when they gave you advice, then most people at some point or another didn't think the advice they were getting was worth anything - either that or they felt insulted. People are this way - and in fact they should be. If you are unable to question what you are being told you probably don't deserve to hear it anyway.

You seem to be missing a very big point. There is one heckuva difference between "questioning what you are told" to "don't bother telling me anything". If you'll go back and read, numerous officials have already stated that he <b>should</b> question what he's told, and then keep the good and discard the bad.

If it was just a simple matter of questioning something that another official told him, you wouldn't have had any of the responses that have been posted so far. There is nothing the matter with questioning advice. However, that's completely different than an official who doesn't want to take <b>any</b> advice.

We get that, and if you re-read the thread, several posters said as much.

I think it is obvious that all of us have had advice while coming up that was not worth listening to, BUT you still need to just grin and bare it when you get it.

It is also pretty clear that officials contributing to this forum and taking their free time to be there early to watch less experienced officials, deserve at least the respect to listen to their advice.

To shut off that input does an official no good, and once that attitude makes the rounds, that official may as well stop working because they will not be moving up.

All right, I get what you are saying better now. And I definitely agree.

Re: A Different angle
 

That is a loaded question. That depends on the area, fellow official’s ability, basic requirements and any who they might work with.

There is no magic formula or way to decide when someone is ready. Every assignor or officials might have a requirement I can imagine if 10 different people give an answer, you will have 10 different answers. I know when I choose a crew to work a game I consider the type of game we are going to work, the type of teams that are involved (it will matter if the coaches are veterans) and who are partner will be (three person crew). It would also depend on how many varsity games this official has worked. I would also want someone that is teachable. If you are going to work with me when I have the opportunity to pick the officials, a newer official has to be someone that is willing to learn. If they are not willing to learn or have a certain attitude about being given advice, I likely will not assign you to a game with me. I want a teammate, not someone that is out there for themselves.

Peace

Re: A Different angle
 

I don't think there's anyone thing or even a specific list per se. But here are a few things.

The ability to slow down, see the whole play and maintain control- Inexperienced officials are in a great, big hurry. Too quick to whistle, too quick to signal, too quick in reporting. It's not necessary to make every call like the call determines the fate of the world. The ability to slow down demonstrates confidence and control.

Staying away from game interuptors- I see more interuptors in one JV game than I do in 5 varsity games. A2 steps inot the lane a split second early on a made FT. A 3 second call when the dribbler is stalling at the division line. Needless whistles. :(

"On the floor!"- This kind of goes back to slowing down and letting the play develop and recognizing when continuous motion begins. All to often, I see a player drive, pickup the dribble on his way to the whole, only to have the whistle blown and the official yell, "On the floor!" First, recognize that the try has started. Second, allow the play to develop so that the shooter who has gained an advantage doesn't have that advantage taken away by a foul.

BTW, you'll learn more after moving to varsity than you learned in all your other games combined. Working with veterans will teach you the finer points of the game and make you think about things you never considered before.

Be patient and good luck!

I meant it to be loaded. That way, I feel you all have an open invite to truly speak your mind on the issue.

The lady who got me interested in reffing is well known here in Michigan. She has given me similar advice: slow down, do your homework, work on your technique, dress the part, observe other officials, ask questions and listen, etc. She has done many Michigan state finals in, I believe, 4 different sports. I know I can't jump up to Varsity in my first year. I do all JV and some Jr High games. In Michigan, the girls season (fall) does not overlap with the boys (winter). I had a number of girls games, and, just love the boys games (more speed, more intensity, bigger crowds, rowdier fans...). I am EAGERLY awaiting "the call up", though (I know, have patience...). Having coached for 13 years, this has been a change. But, I'm diggin it. I love this forum too. Great learning tool.

chrs_schuster,
You started this thread with a question. Here's an answer. The bottom line is this: If you want their advice ask for it, but be willing to listen to what they say. If you don't want their input, don't ask because most will take you seriously and give you their feedback. Remember if you think fellow officials are hard on you, try coaches and a gym full of fans when you really screw something up.

Is this lady someone we know here?

Also, are you female? I always welcome other women on this board. There aren't very many of us.

Whats with the little bit of attitude REFNREV! Read my posts again slick! Im not the one asking for evaluation forms and saying dont tell me anything. My post says that I am willing to listen and am asking questions myself. I was just stating my observation of a few varsity officials who think there the next to ref a Lebron James game and try to impress me by there knowledge of the game. Which may be in fact great, BUT...if I dont ask for help"which is rare" I shouldnt be subjected to there smug attitude. By the way I have NEVER said a disrespectful word to a varsity official! I grin and bare it, just like all the rest of the rookies. The only place that I can voice these concerns is HERE!!......where nobody knows me!!!!!!!!!

Wow, I'm glad I'm not in your association!! I've got enough credibility problems without having to "bare it" as a rookie!!

__________________________________________________ ________

No "attitide" intended. Just an attempt to give an honest reply to your question. You do seem to be very sensitive about this whole issue. Agreed -- there are some major leauge egos out there. But there also a lot of helpful comments -- most of which come from people who have made their share of their mistakes. I've had officials who can barely make the right call twice in one game give me advice I didn't want or need. I say, "Thank you" and go on. You can learn from any official -- even the very bad ones. You've already learned that you don't want to come off as a "know it all" to newer officials.

I think her username on here is oatmeal queen (something to do with oatmeal). And, I am male, most of the time...

you know what I meant rainmaker..... hows this one; I bite my tongue and say thank you all the time. Is that one better for all the "children" in here.

Re: Re: A Different angle
 

You hit the nail on the head.

SLOW whistles, the ability to SLOW the game down in your mind so you don't take an advantage away from someone.

Endless, needless fouls. JV games where the officials are calling every bit of contact and not using any judgment at all.

I'm not saying to use foul counts as a judge, but I have more varsity games with FEW fouls (25 or less total for both teams) than I do with LOTS of fouls (40 or more). A good varsity official makes sure every foul called caused a disadvantage for the person being fouled or there's excessive contact where a foul is required for the good of the game.

(Another big one -- B guard steals ball up top and will have a clean break, except that the A player grabs for the B player and definitely touches or bumps him -- let the stealing player try to play through that contact, as you don't want to unfairly penalize someone who is on a breakaway.)

I've heard officials say that not calling fouls when there's contact encourages rough play, but I don't buy that. Not calling fouls when there's excessive contact encourages rough play and I don't think anyone here would advocate passing on such fouls.

And on those "on the floor" fouls, I get more crap from coaches who think I'm way too generous on awarding free throws, which only tells me I'm doing it right.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Dec 26th, 2005 at 11:38 AM]

I'm in similar shoes. I know no one who enjoys hearing criticism. Your hunger for improvement should exceed your temporarily hurt feelings. I try to remember the information that will make me better, and discard the "I'm- so-glad-I'm-not-a-rookie-anymore-so-I-can-talk-down-to- someone" attitude. Even these guys can provide helpful information. Try to remember what teaches and encourages you about their delivery/information. Employ these things in your delivery to younger officials, when the time comes.

Blindzebra, I would like to let you now. I am an individual who ensures that you sleep peacefully at night. I am a VETERAN in the United States Army. I have served in two wars. I have been serving my country faithfully for 16 years. Do not insult me in that capacity.(FOOTLOCKER).

[Edited by truerookie on Dec 26th, 2005 at 11:45 PM]

I don't need to insult you, you've done a great job doing it to yourself.

Pulling the vet card is lame, by the way.

Thank you for your service to our country.

It doesn't excuse what you stated in your initial reply in this thread. I don't think I've ever seen anyone catch so much crap for a single post in all my days on the board. You've brought unity where there never was unity before. Talk about a unanimous response!

BTW, if you ever end up with the 82nd, drop me an email.

So working in the army is more worthy than working at Footlocker?

Man, talk about arrogant.

Get over yourself.

My philosopy is eat the meat and spit out the bones. Be a sponge and soak up as much as you can, then toss out what you dont think is relavent to you. But always listen, because Varsity Officials have a lot of say pull and you dont want to hinder your career.

Let's see. Sell sneakers. . . secure freedom. . . sell sneakers. . . secure freedom. . . I'm going with yes, working in the army is more worthy than working at Footlocker. How is that arrogant?

I don't see a smiley face anywhere!

I'm in the military too and it has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation or the remarks that were made about Footlocker. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't tie officiating a game to the military. Apples and hand grenades. :D

Oh brother!! :rolleyes:

Peace

Just take it with a grain of salt because anybody can go out there and be critical of any other official’s technique or calls. I would place the emphasis on finding a couple guys you really think do a great job and whose opinion you respect and have them evaluate your performance. One of the coolest things about doing this is that every official has the opportunity to incorporate there own style into there mechanics. There are some people out there that think if you aren't doing things there way you’re doing it the wrong way! Good Luck and Stick With It!

Not rocket Science
 

i would like to try and contribute something. I am a 2nd yr official. So this is my opinion on this deal.

Officiating is not rocket science, it is not some magical thing, its a set of very specific skills with some judgement thrown in. I think some of the skill sets are unique but nevertheless they are just skill sets. Also there is the learned ability to perform under pressure. Bottom line for me is officiating is a set of skills, I learn them I get better. So on to the Varsity refs.

I have the attitude of taking what I like and leaving the rest. I think most humans are delusional about their abilities. Whether in officiating or in tennis, or tiddlewinks. I also believe people when they are helping out with their criticisms might have other agendas. Some examples from this year.

Two older V refs rating me. One rips me a new one at half-time about a shot clock violation we missed. Skill set i am working on. The other has very specific things that I need to do,ie stay off ball, pinch down to help on backside while rebounding. So I pinch down and i get beat one time all night. The ripper on my evaluation rips me for being lazy, getting beat, not hustling.
The helper vet doesn't even mention it. My perception is the helper vet is comfortable with he is getting older and he is assuming more of a mentor role then worrying about getting replaced. The ripper vet with his dyed hair and bad wig, slight exageration, is in fear and he manifests it on to other people. i can't stop typing this stuff.

Believe it or not this flowed so much better in my head then it came out on paper.

Re: Not rocket Science
 

You could be right, how these 2 people deal with you is based on your youth and their own lack of same.

Could also be that the ripper has been a jerk since he had a full head of undyed hair and the helper is just a nice guy.


btw...how do you "miss" a shot clock violation?

dan ref
 

If I remember correctly shot up, horn, neither me or partner made a decision on whether or not it hit the rim. So it was and looked ugly. We had also struggled all night with the shot clock. Neither of us had the shot clock stuff nailed, but I am working on paying more attention to it all the time. Actually had the clock person reset the shot clock the other night to like 18 seconds. For me doing something the first time is the hardest , then it gets alot easier pretty quick.

Well, you did make a decision, didn't you? You either did or did not blow the whistle. ;)

I think part of the problem with the shot clock for you guys with a full head of hair is you're not really used to having complete awareness of any clock - I bet you messed up that shot clock violation because you were surprised to hear it go off. Get into the habit of locating both shot clocks and the game clocks when you enter the gym. And glance at it whenever possible, which should be often if the clocks are where they should be. Always check the time on the shot clock at a whistle - one of the crew should always have it. Always check it on a ball reversal. Always check it on a shot, whether it goes in, misses or hits. Always check it before putting the ball in play. Always check it on a completed throw-in. Check it when the ball swings out of your primary. Check it when there's nothing else going on. It's easy once you get the nack of it. The harder part is actually remembering what the thing said when you need to!

Enough free advice for 1 day, next time I'll just rip you a new one for screwing up. :)



[Edited by Dan_ref on Dec 27th, 2005 at 12:04 PM]

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rook, We are trying to help you understand how officiating works. Since you are in your 2nd year, you have not mastered the art of officiating. I am pretty sure that you haven't grasped all the aspects of game management, consistency, advantage/disadvantage, just to name a few. However, if you have this down pat, let me be the first one to apologize to you.

Maybe you should be the one who carries a pen & pad with you to games, so if someone wishes to give you some knowledge about the game of basketball, you will be ready and taking notes. Its not fair for you to put the onus on an official trying to give you some insight! Alot of what you will learn will not be written anywhere.

While we may never meet, no one wants you to be black-balled in your 2nd year. That could make for a short career or a lonely one. There are a lot of us on this forum who work full varsity schedules and are also on the college circuit. At the college level we are evaluated on a nightly basis. None of my evaluators or observers at the college level have given us a written evaluation to take home and study.

Sometimes it is a lot easier for an official to tell you a couple of things to work on rather than giving you a complete evaluation.

By the way I am also a VETERAN and it has nothing to do with officiating!

Don't forget to always check at the beginning of a game/half/quarter/OT!

If that were true, it would be possible to rip somebody a new opinion. ;)

Clock
 

I agree with you D-ref on all the clock stuff. Last year i didn't know the shot clock existed, now I am working on managing the clock.

PS i do have a full head of hair but I am not young. Just younger than someone who was born in 40's or 50's.

That's why a new one is ripped, so that one can form a new opinion! :)