I'll know better next time. This was one of those "things to learn from".

8th Grade boys. Two well coached teams. Good athletes on both sides. Looked as good as many JV teams I've seen lately.

The first game (7th grade) was physical and closely contested. Came down to last second and visitors won. There were 4 player control fouls, to give you an idea of the intensity of the game, and we know how those calls get the crowd up.

The 8th grade game was played much the same way, but the visitors were able to get the game in hand by midway through the 4th period.

With 1:30 left in game. I was new lead, on the baseline near 2 A's and 2 B's. The other six were across midcourt for a sideline throw in.

As ball is handed A1, B34 shoves A2 from behind, right in front of me. It was a pretty good shove, and I could see the frustration in his face. It wasn't a play for position, just an accumulation of the days emotions getting the better of him.

I whistle the foul, determine it to have been flagrant, and inform the coach and table what we have. Meanwhile, partner is moving everyone to the opposite side to administer the free throws, not clearing the lane.

Now we have a problem. I confer with partner, a veteran, to make sure he knows I had a flagrant foul. He says, yes, we're OK, and reminds me we're in the bonus. As shooter gets the ball, I still don't feel right. Free throw goes in as the timer buzzes horn and waves me over to table.

Shoot two and get ball on sideline? Intentional Foul?, I'm asked. I said, we do not have a technical foul nor an intentional foul, but a flagrant foul. We shoot the 1 and 1.

Checking rule book after the game, I see we blew it.

Two questions remain for me. Did I make the proper call as a flagrant foul? Did everyone in the gym know we screwed up the free throw situation?

I'll let you all get started, and answer questions as we go.

1) If you felt that the shove coulda injured the other player, or that the shove coulda possibly led to a fight, then a flagrant could be the right call. Without seeing it, it's impossible to give you a definitive answer imo.
2)Probably not everyone knew, but probably "some" people in the gym knew that you screwed up. That is a pretty basic penalty application. As you said, all you can do is learn from it. It'll never happen again, will it? :)

Hartsy,

I'd have to see the play to know if that would be a flagrant foul or an intentional foul. Judgment required.

You say that it occurred "as the ball was handed to A1." You have to determine if it happened before it was handed to A1 or after. It cannot be "as." If it happened before, then you have a technical foul because the ball is dead. If it happened after, then you have a live ball.

Regardless of whether you call a dead ball technical flagrant, a dead ball technical intentional or merely a live ball intentional foul, you will shoot two free throws.

If it was a technical flagrant, the player is ejected to the bench. After the free throws for a technical foul are shot, the ball will be awarded to team A for a throw-in at midcourt, opposite the table. A technical intentional would be exactly the same except that the player would not be ejected.

If you determine that it was a non-technical flagrant foul, the player is ejected to the bench. After the free throws, the ball will be awarded to team A for a throw-in at the spot nearest where the foul occurred.

I would imagine that many fans knew that you and your partner did not adminster the situation properly. Live and learn.

Z

As to whether it was flagrant or not, I think the others are right that you are thebest judge. Did you consider calling it intentional? If you want a harsher penalty than just a personal foul, especially if the "receiving" team isn't in the bonus yet, the intentional can be a good tool.

As to the penalty, don't sweat it. The percentage of people who understand all the details is so small that you can see this as a learning experience and drop it. NBD.

The last line is a joke, right? Many fans at a JR. HIGH GAME knew the proper penalty for a flagrant personal foul? I don't think so.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Quote:

The last line is a joke, right? Many fans at a JR. HIGH GAME knew the proper penalty for a flagrant personal foul? I don't think so.

Even some casual fans know that an intentional foul leads to two free throws and a throw-in and not just a one-and-one. Most of them have seen an intentional foul called near the end of a game when the defensive team who is trailing in the game makes no attempt at the ball while mugging the offense.

Z

I appreciate the comments.

I went with flagrant as opposed to intentional because the offender was not fouling to negate a clear advantage (ie breakaway layup) by the opponent nor to gain an advantage for himself. It was, to me, clearly just an overaggressive push to get himself away from the other guy.

The ball was indeed live, just well on the other side of the court.

If I went with a common foul or an intentional foul, maybe things would have been OK. The kid may have had time to calm down as we lined up for the free throws (either the 1 and 1, or 2 and ball). My judgement at the time said it would be best to get him to the bench.

As someone has said before, I now own this situation should it happen again.

Anything else to consider?

The intentional is defined in the book as two different possible fouls. There's the "negate a clear advantage" thing, but there's also "excessive contact". That's where I think you might have put this play. In the rule, it does say "...excessive contact while playing the ball..." so I guess I'm fudging here a little ( ...and I don't want to hear all those catcalls about being a "rule book" ref!!). But it does make a good intermediate penalty for those over-the-top fouls that aren't really, actually fighting.

Based on your description, the foul was intentional not flagrant -- in other words, not worthy of an ejection. Just my rteading, though.