....but it sure wasn't basketball either, sir.

I worked a girls varsity game last night. Flow? What flow. I was surprised the game was as close as it was when I looked at the boxscore this morning -- the difference was 3 points at the half, 4 after 3Q, and 5 points at the end.

It was the type of game that couldn't possibly make the officials look good. About 60 turnovers, players diving on the floor, lots and lots of contact, about 15 held balls. I kept telling myself "call advantage/disadvantage," but I could tell that the parents and coaches were used to officials calling every little bit of contact fouls (or at least that's the way they acted).

I looked at the boxscore in the paper this morning, and we called a total of 27 fouls -- not a lot, but not like we called 8 or something.

I guess it's time I try to find a point to this post:

Why do I feel so much more comfortable calling a sloppy boys game than a sloppy girls game?

Oh, and I need an answer by about 3PM CST, cause I have another one tonight.

--Rich

To quote someone famous

Get in,
Get done,
Get out.

I had much the same conversation with some officials last weekend. We came to the conclusion that it has to do with boys being able to play through more contact (advantage/disadvantage) than most girl players. This topic came up because I worked a couple of 1A games over the weekend after working a couple of weeks of 3A basketball. My crew and I probably looked terrible to the 1A fans, players, and coaches because a lot of contact we were used to passing on, looked like a horrible collision with 1A players. We had a hard time adjusting and didn't feel as though we worked a very good game. As always, the better the players, the easier it is for us to call the game. Also, speaking in generalities here of course, it seems that most boys teams eventually figure out what we are calling and aren't. In girl's games it seems that they don't adjust as well throughout the game.

I see the same thing Junker does. I work some games in a 4A conference, where the level of acceptable contact is much higher than the 1A and 2A schools I work. This is particularly true of girls games. Those fans always want every little touch called in those small school girls games.

"Hey, ref, this isn't football...."

I wonder what gave them that impression but here's a few ideas:

1. Officials did not wear collars or knickers.
2. No fieldgoals in sight.
3. Football is not generally played on a wood court.
4. While teams were running their offense, officials did not call for penalties on multiple forward passes.
5. Team benches were on the sames side of field/ court.

Oh, I could go on but no need as you already had a fan inform everyone in the gym that he has identified this sporting competition is not football.

because a sloppy boys game is like a perfect girls game.

basketball has field goals. They don't have goal posts.

Ha. I think I set a personal record for traveling calls last night. I had at least six. My partner had a similar number. Juulie is right and that's what we were saying on the way home last night.

A couple of weeks ago we had a freshman girls game with 12 jump balls in the first half. We were at 7 during the quarter break so every one after that the table was rolling their eyes and laughing. It was kind of tragically funny.

Ahh yes, been there. Girl's game are much more difficult for the exact reason you said. They can't play through as much contact. This gets my partner and I in trouble sometimes because we try to keep the flow that you need.

I still like doing girl's games though, it seems they are there to have fun and don't take it as life and death as most boys teams.

Games get easier to call as the level increases. I had to laugh working with a guy last month who did mostly 4A HS games - he was nervewrecked by halftime during our 5th-6th grade girls AAU-type game.

My worst game of the 2005 (and that I can remember being a part of ever) so far was a frosh boys game two weeks ago. 41 fouls (23 on white, 18 on red) - and the fans said we were letting them get away with murder. At least both coaches were sympathetic - I guess they knew what they had.

Don't think of this as a record... I expect that you'll have plenty worse. I know I have - even at the varsity level.

For the sake of conversation, what is the record on the big board? Anybody have a +50 foul game recently?

I don't think I've had a 50+ foul game yet. I did have a very sloppy frosh game about a month ago that had about 20+ fouls in the first half. My partner (being even newer than me) was calling some ticky-tack stuff and I had a few of my own that probably didn't help.

We agreed during halftime to try and call less fouls and I think we did minimize it to "less than 20" in the 2nd half. (how much less, I don't remember). :)


The funny thing was that both schools were catholic schools. One was a city school that has had pretty good frosh teams in the past few years (not this year). The other school is from the suburbs and they have a fine varsity squad but the frosh weren't all that great.

What made it worst (and I hate this about a lot of games in our area), is both teams were "trying" to press. With a lack of quickness on the defensive end, and relatively few ball handlers on both sides, it made for a long dragged out affair.

One perception I have is that in a boy's game, when a player gets a defensive rebound, the other nine run to the other end of the court. In a girl's game, it's a signal to attack the rebounder.

I've had three games this year, 1 boys, 2 girls varsity, where we were in double bonus, both teams, both halves so we probably got close to 50.

I've also had two games, 1 boys, 1 girls, where we did not shoot a 1 and 1 the entire game.

It's amazing how we can feel we have a game under control and the perception of the fans can be completely different. After a game a couple of weeks ago, I spoke to a woman in my office who was at half of a game I had worked where we called 46 total fouls (Her husband coaches another school in the conference and they were scouting). At the end of the 1st Quarter, team fouls were 9-9. We as the officials thought we had a pretty good handle on things. We weren't hearing squat from the coaches. And yet, when I talked to this lady on Monday morning, she thought we were letting one team get away with way too much.

On that same note, one of the teams involved in this game has now played 3 games this year, with total foul counts of 44, 46 and 46. I've worked 2 of those 3 games, and in neither of them did we feel like we had lost control of the game.

Since when does not hearing from coaches mean anything? How often do people on this forum state that coaches don't know anything about officiating? We all bash on coaches for what we hear them say. So how can they be so brilliant now that they haven't said "squat" during your game?

Its hard to lose control of a 32 minute game when 46 fouls are called. Now add to this however many violations were called, call it 10, but it is likely that it was actually less, plus any OOB calls. It sounds more like there was too much control being exerted. Did either team break a sweat?

What was the foul count for each team? If the foul calls went mostly against one team, maybe the lady in your office is correct. Ticky-tack calls at one end, obvious calls at the other would also serve as validation to a fan that one team is getting away with more than the other. ;)

[Edited by icallfouls on Dec 20th, 2005 at 07:39 PM]

I'm not saying that silence on the part of coaches means a whole lot, but often in a game where so many fouls are called, either they think you're calling it too tight and let ya know, or, as you imply, one team may thing they're gettin railroaded while the other one is getting away with ticky tack $hit we're calling the other way. I seem to recall that the final foul count was 24-22, so overall, it was evenly called. But I felt that we were able to let the kids play through some of the crap, while getting what we needed to.

A followup:

Our first foul tonight was with 6:51 left in the first HALF. The first whistle of the game (after the opening jump) was 3 minutes in for a 30-second timeout.

The second half it all fell apart. Close game, lots of aggressive play, but again, mostly aggressive play that didn't result in advantage/disadvantage.

Naturally, we went overtime, won by the visitors by 3 points. Home team had a three at the end to tie, but it ended up being an airball :)

Main things I'll remember from tonight? Well, I personally called 1 foul the entire first half (my partner called the other six, and they were all good fouls). Mine was a good foul, too. :)

But I can't remember the last time I had both coaches whine as much. Home coach wanted "over the back" fouls called on the visiting center who never got within a foot of the home players -- she was just 6 inches taller and got the rebounds while the home players neglected to get position and box out.

Partner gave an explanation of something in passing to the home coach and we put the ball in play and partner immediately calls a PC foul on the guard who threw out an arm. Visiting coach asked me if partner called that because the other coach was complaining.

And on and on.

But it could be worse. Started at 7:35PM, went overtime and still was off the court by 9 and showered, dressed, and in the car by 9:20 for the 86 mile drive home. $55 game fee, partner who drove got $30 travel money. But we all do this for the money, right?

Boys 3-person Thursday and Friday. I'll be glad when we go 3-person for everything.

talking football, well for me that's soccer. What do you say about the basketball ref that called offside? Yeah I've seen it, had a LONG good laugh about it :p

Total number of fouls.
 

Last year I had a game with 58 total fouls. The year before was my record high at 65. Both of those totals are according to the newspaper the next day. I didn't keep track. But those games felt really long.

Amazingly, that same season was also my record low of ONE foul for the whole game! (1A GV) :)

I'm still kicking myself for calling it too. It was in the 2nd quarter and I didn't have to have it. I messed up our chance. :(


Has anyone ever called a HS Varsity game without any fouls at all?

IMO, girls think they are entitled to reach for the ball no matter where it is and who has it. Add to that the fact that the girl with the ball doesn't know how to protect the ball and you have a lot of jump balls and fouls.

Watched my daughter's JV game last night. First half fouls were 15 to 7 (my daughters team had the 7). Our fans were still yelling at the refs to call it both ways! I was sitting in the stands next to these people saying to myself you have got to be kidding me.

And of course.....to the fans and coaches EVERY TIME the defender reaches, it should be a foul. Every time there's a bump on the rebound where the player clears it cleanly, it should STILL be a foul.

Last night we had three straight possessions of interest. Player from the home team gets the ball in the frontcourt, dribbles, picks up her dribble, and holds the ball in front of her. First two times defender grabs the ball and we have a held ball. Third time, defender rips the ball away clean and we have a break the other way. Coach wonders why we aren't calling those fouls. Jeez....

OK, I think I got it out of my system now. My next girls game isn't until January 6, and it's at a school with a perenially good girls program. Matter of fact, I think we're taking 3 to work that game.

You have got to be kidding me.
 

You mean to tell me that we have gotten to two pages in this thread and no one is giving a lecture as to how girl's basketball is not that bad. Or no one has said that you guys are arrogant because you are putting down girl's basketball.

Oh well.

Peace

Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

Girls basketball is not that bad. You guys are arrogant bacause you are putting down girl's basketball.

Always looking to help those in need over the Christmas season!

Re: Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

LOL!!! :D

Peace

Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

Jeff,

We work boys' games in Illinois (reciprocal license) and the nice thing down there is that there are separate assignors for boys and girls. I've worked basketball in Illinois for 4 years (about 10 games a year, mostly in the Rockford area) and have yet to work a girls' game there.

Here the assignors (commissioners) assign both. Therefore, most people work both.

--Rich

Re: Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

I already realized that. I just find it funny how sensitive people get when we start talking about how bad girl's basketball is. I was just surprised that no one got a conniption with the conversations.

Also some assignors do assign both here. The reality is that many would not dare ask officials to work both. I know many coaches and ADs do not like to see a lot of officials on both sides of the isle. I have said this before and I have taken heat for it. The reality is more Boys’ assignors make you go through huge loopy loops to work in their conferences. There is one Girl's assignor around here that hires a lot of officials without seeing them at camp or requiring officials to be "Certified” as a pre-requisite before they get a varsity game. The Boy's assignors not usually require seeing you during camps, work many years of lower level ball in their conference before you even get a sniff at a bad varsity game.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

I already realized that. I just find it funny how sensitive people get when we start talking about how bad girl's basketball is. I was just surprised that no one got a conniption with the conversations. Peace

I think most officials on this board (you are an exception) are smart enough to see the difference between someone venting about a sloppy game and someone (you) who constantly rants about girls basketball to hide their oedipus complex and fragile masculinity. :rolleyes:

Z

Re: Re: Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

Jeff -- I'm the one that usually starts having conniptions when girls' basketball is being "put down". I haven't done it yet, because I was out being a ref, and didn't see this thread until now. Rich was talking about a specific game, and there's no offense there. Good grief, we all see terrible girls' games just like we all see terrible boys' games.

Tomegun seems to be into rash generalizations these days, so his post:

doesn't mean much. Other posts in this trhead have been about foul count and listening to coaches. Nothing much to react to.

I do think that Zebraman overstates the case by saying that you are talking stupid. You were merely making an observation that there hasn't been the usual rant about girls' basketball.

When I read a post like Rich's, or about the kinds of girls' ball you do, I just feel sorry for you-all. We are fortunate here in Portland to have some very, very good girls' teams, and we see a lot of very good ball. We also have some very lousy boys' teams. SO the gradient isn't as steep here between boys' ball and girls' ball. Pity for you isn't prompting a rant from me anymore.

Re: Re: Re: Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

This is a true story.

Last season I asked my girlfriend to come with me to a game to watch during the playoffs. I wanted to watch one of my friends work his regional championship game. I did not tell her what kind of game we were attending, I just asked her to come to the game with me. When we got there and she noticed we were at a girl's playoff game, she got upset with me and starting making jokes like "if you told me we were coming to a girls game I would have stayed home." I was there to just watch the officials, not the game. She was upset because she thought we were going to a Boy's games. Now my girlfriend (of about 6 years) played sports in HS and played basketball as well. She did not want to be there.

Now you can say I am the exception, but the reality is I live in an area where "most officials" have to choose or they will not work (as you move up). You are not going to work both Men's and Women's college basketball. You are not going to work the best Boy's Basketball by working both. I will be working next week one of the largest Boy's and Girl's HS Christmas Tournaments in the country. Guess what, the assignors or tournament committee will not let officials work both boy's and girl's basketball. As a matter of fact, the girl's officials are working both Class A and AA games. The Boy's officials are split into a Class A staff and a Class AA Staff (which is another dynamic in our state). I am working the Class AA games and will not work anything but Class AA Boy's basketball. I did not ask when about what I would be doing when I accepted this tournament or really care. I guess it is just me that feels this way or thinks there is a difference in the game. It is so obvious that I am the only one considering that a major tournament will not allow officials to work both in their big time tournament. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

Peace

LOL. Now you are making excuses for why you went to <i> watch </I> a girls game. Freud will have a field day with you. :rolleyes: It's OK Rut, you can put the dress and high heels on. None of us care.

Z

C'mon Z, leave the guy alone. Even Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar." It's possible and permissible for Rut to dislike girls' basketball without him being psychologically weird. Besides, an awful lot of Freud has been discredited in the last 100 years or so. Let him keep his boys games and his opinions. No need to be offended.

Re: Re: Re: Re: You have got to be kidding me.
 

That is just Z not confident in what he does. That is just the way he is always going to be.

Who said we did not have very good girl's basketball? Juulie, one of the best players in the country and the only girl to win a certain national award for Player of the Year came 15 minutes from where I live. That also does not include the many Final Fours with players from this area. The issue is not whether it there are good teams, the issue is (at least for me) what typically happens in a girl's game as compared to a boy's game. Let us face it, when I call a girls game and the play is sloppy, hardly anyone is complaining about the amount of contact in the game. They might want a foul in some cases, but it is not a very common complaint. When I have worked a girl's game, for some reason every little time a player tries to dribble between two defenders that are just standing there, you would think someone shot the girl with a gun by the reaction of the fans and many coaches. That same play in a boy's game would get a response not favorable to the dribbler. Not matter how you feel about it; it seems to me that slight contact is expected to be called a foul in the girl's games while more contact is expected in a boy's game. I worked in a varsity boy's game with an officials recently that works more girl's games in his career and he called a bunch of fouls one the defenders just making blocks. Many of these fouls no one was knocked down or hit the floor, but he called a few fouls on players where one was about 6'8 and the other player was 6'10 (someone said 7'0, but I did not think so) and every block attempt in one part of the game or in this official's area we had a whistle. When the same thing took place where I was working and my other partner, no foul called (the other official was a State Final official).

Peace

Yeah but he had to take a huge unlit cigar out of his mouth to say it.

Anyway...carry on, very entertaining...

You seemed to care. Because when I tell you there is a difference where I live you get offended. I will tell you this, most officials that work Boy's playoffs, never get asked to work Girl's playoffs and vice versa. Also if you want to work Girl's playoffs and you try to get off a Boy's varsity game, those officials might find themselves not working in those Boy's conferences anymore. That is not what I say, that is what the assignors say and have done. (Girl's playoffs start at different times in our state. Each gender and class has their own State Finals weekend as well in this order, <b>Girl's Class A; Girl's Class AA; Boy's Class A; Boy Class AA</b>)

Peace

/B][/QUOTE]

C'mon Z, leave the guy alone. Even Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar." It's possible and permissible for Rut to dislike girls' basketball without him being psychologically weird. Besides, an awful lot of Freud has been discredited in the last 100 years or so. Let him keep his boys games and his opinions. No need to be offended. [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you sure that was Freud? I thought that was Clinton?

Last night recent enough for ya? Both teams in the double bonus both halves. Visitors had at least 15 in both halves. Visitors also won by about 40.

Unfortunately, the visitors in my game last night used Frank's perception of the girls. Only problem was my game was boys.

Rainmaker, I gave my opinion. I would be willing to wager that what I said is right in the majority of high school girls games in the US. Not at all games, but most. Can you explain another reason for many officials from all parts of the country to have waaaaaay more held balls in a girls games than they do a boys game? If you can answer that, have at it and I will learn something new tonight. Otherwise, that is your second poke at me today. Either I need to go to sleep or you need to stop poking me for today.

I'd settle for both.

I will look past that.

Ironically, I just got a call from the high school assigner. we do both boys and girls here. I had a girls game tomorrow night; I couldn't tell by my schedule because the assigner doesn't mark the difference. I do know I was going to get home earlier because of a earlier start time. Anyway, he moved me from that game to a sold out Catholic league boys game. I guess I got demoted. :D

Well, it's hard to tell from here whether it's a demotion or a promotion. Also, you didn't say what the level of play of the two games is. I hope you enjoy your sold out Catholic league boys' game. Sounds like fun. I hope that makes up for the girls' game you'll be missing.

Oh, some would say I'm arrogant, or could be mistaken for an "arrogant little sh!t." I'm a basketball junky pure and simple. I state my feelings and if it doesn't jive with the warm and fuzzy feelings, I have a tail and horns. In the last couple of weeks I've done: military intramurals (the worst ball in the world), over-50 rec, JH (boys and girls), JUCO, high school boys (Varsity), military base-level, D2. I would have done the girls game I had and tried to have the perfect game! That isn't a resume, that is an official who loves the game! The only reason why I don't play over-30 is I can't stand losing when we don't play the right way. I don't think that fits the criteria for an arrogant official and I don't think I would do all of that if I was constantly making sweeping generalizations about others.