Ok Fellas, I am a second year ref, and I'm not sure what a more experienced ref would have done so here goes. I'm trail official in a girls JV game. Late 4th quarter about 1:30 left on the clock. Score tied. I call travel on home team in there frontcourt. As I'm making my travel signal, I see head coach for home team ( a woman and an official too) flipping me off with her arms. She then mouthed F##K OFF!! to me. I immediately T,d her in a crucial part of the game. So I told she had lost her coaching box privileges. As the rest of the game was going on I noticed her getting up out of her seat. My partner and I both told her to sit down. They lost the game in overtime, but I was just wondering if you guys would have handled it different? thanks

For me, early exit for that coach. See ya!

I would have tossed her, post haste! Once you let her get by with that your control of the game was nonexistent. After I filed my game report for the ejection she would have had a lot of explaining to do to her AD/Principal and if she coached within our area she would have been suspended.

I have no problem if you gave her the hook.

Peace

That's a flagrant act and an ejection.

Plus why would you and your partner both tell her to sit down?

IMO, she should have been tossed twice.

#$%^ off and flipping you would have been flagarant in my book and tossed her on the first. I would not have worried about the second

"When in doubt, throw 'em out!"

Why in the world would you think you could let a coach stay on this planet after saying that to you? Not only that - you said she was an OFFICIAL!!!!! That is wrong on so many levels.

I can think of at least two organizations to which she needs to be reported.

I would've called two distinct Ts, though. Shooting four is more appropriate here than just shooting two.

I can't imagine NOT giving her the hook on this.

Eject after the gesture and words. No real thought involved, to be honest. This is high school, not college, and that action is not to be tolerated.

This is something that would cause someone to lose their coaching privileges, if not their job, imo.

It's a little late to T her again now and depending on when the game was, it might not be to late to make sure that report to the state office is very detailed. They can and will deal with it appropriatly.

Aggie,

Are you implying that you tolerate this kinda behavior in your college games?

Mulk

She's gone. In a perfect world, your partner would see it (protecting your partner) and send her packing instead of you.

Z

I agree but...
 

I hear your words!!!!but.... as a second year official, my partner as well. Never been in that predicetment before, I have only Td one head coach before in my first year. So I guess I was a little hesitant to throw the coach out not knowing if it was the correct call to just T or throw out. Im not backpeddling, all I can say is that it wolnt happen again. By the way the AD contacted me for a statement. Thanks again for the input

great quote!!!
 

Mr. Padgett, great quote, I will try to live by this rule on the court!! Thanks again!!!

In the immortal words of Total B@stard Airlines, "Buh-bye!"

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a picture of David Spade and Helen Hunt doing this skit. Maybe Dan will be able to dig one up.

Unfortunately, someone might ask you why you didn't throw her out and you could end up defending yourself.
A lot of times, a high school coach is trying to add to their income (which is too low for what they do) by coaching a sport. It is often their first taste of some power and they take it too far. On the other hand, a college coach is often coaching to feed his/her family. They do get out of hand, but they realize their livelyhood is at stake so too many situations can (but don't enough) lead to getting fired.

Re: I agree but...
 

Chris -- no need to defend yourself. It makes sense in your circs to be uncertain how to handle this situation. We are just letting you know for next time. At least you got to file a report, and the "authorities" are aware of her and her attitude. That's not quite as good as her getting tossed, but almost. And then, she lost! There's that karma thing again...

You witnessed vugar gestures and obscene words? Good heaven"s yes. Thats an easy T.

Keep in mind this individual is paid by YOUR tax money and teach's YOUR children too. What place does this behavior have when coach's are asked to demonstrate and teach sportsmanship.

When Coach - AFTER A REMINDER even - chooses to stand up - you are not fulfilling your obligations and responsibilites to yourself, your partner, the spectators, the kids, the association, the competition, the rule book , the game and all other coach's you'll ever encounter - if you talk yourself out of the required enforcement.

As you grow refereeing you'll constantly deal with the "line" coach's are not to cross over to garner a T from you.

As described this coach is in another time zone.

Fellow 2nd year official, I understand your uncertainty. I have given out a few T's in my short career and one ejection (player). I am on this website constantly becoming better enable to apply the "spirit of the rule" correctly. The concept, Mr. Padgett stated is a good one. The way I see it must reasonable people will observe you making your best effort in applying the "spirit of the rule" correctly. In this situation, I believe you applied what you thought was the right thing to do. You should make a note of this in your basketball journal and learn from it.

I personally keep a journal of every game I work. So, I can reflect of some of the unusual situations in which I may encounter in a game setting. It will get easier as you continue in this avocation. Dealing with these types of situations.

My refereeing mentor told me that the Coach T is a line each individual referee has and the "line" is determined by your experience in games.

With each technical "situation' - and the T called or not -that line moves. You are developing YOUR standards for sportsmanship and acceptable coach's behavior going forward.

the key is you must develop one.

Did you mean to say this is a teacher trying to add to their income and that teachers are underpaid? All I gotta say is that if you choose to work 9 months a year, you should expect only 9 months worth of pay.

OK, so I'm not Dan, but will these do?

<img src ="http://snltranscripts.jt.org/93/pics/93pbuhbye2.jpg" width=240 height=180>
<img src ="http://snltranscripts.jt.org/93/pics/93pbuhbye1.jpg" width=240 height=180>

OK then, Buh Bye!

Do you think teachers sit around and eat bon bons all summer? And many teachers are underpaid for 9 months work.

JV games are for the varsity head coach to grade (judge) the officials. They observe that game to see what they can get away with in the varsity game. Coaches will tell the players to watch the offiicals in that JV game.

Should of told the AD that the JV coach shouldn't be in the gym. Remember who needs to control the game. Fans & player feed off that coach...... You let it go, you just poured gas on the fire. Not only on yourself, but also on the next set of officials that each team will face.

Simple: a used bar of Dial soap and sent to the showers for her, with "No" loss of sleep over it.

No, they are not being underpaid. The school district administrators are over paid. You teach to do a service much similar to when you as a parent teach your own children. It is not our fault government school districts have misused and misappropriated funds at their disposal. My sister does home school for her 4 children while being a p/t math professor in college. Now just think if more parents did home schooling, then how much would you feel a school teacher deserves to receive? If my sister can do it for free, why shouldn’t a school teacher?

Yeah ok.. Then how many teachers would be out there.. Uh zero!!! Then are you going to quit your job to home school your kids? Not likely. Let's set back education standards 500 years at least.

Wow, this is a new one for me; I don't think I've ever heard someone say teachers AREN'T underpaid. During the school year, they are with kids more than the kids own parents are unless you count being with the kids when they are sleep. Even during summer break the parents aren't with the kids much because a lot of parents work. How can someone who is with your kids that much only be worth $40,000 (what I've heard they make in Maryland)? That is under $4,500 a month if you go by 9 months. There are so many other jobs that could be cut, or not given the annual raise, that it is ridiculous. That money could be added to all these teachers' salaries.

I don't know where this came from, but every place I've been, this is dead wrong. JV games are for JV players to play a game of basketball. Coaches don't even always observe the game, let alone observe it to see what they can get away with in their game. Big O, if you do a JV game and I do a Varsity game behind you, let's see how much that coach thinks you will represent what he can and can't get away with?

Attention to young officials - this is not true!

Back to our regularly scheduled programs.

And using your logic, that is an annualized salary of about $53,000. SOunds reasonable to me. Like I said before, work 9 months, get 9 months worth of pay.

And no, I don't believe that ALL teachers sit around in the summer eating bonbons. There are a few that teach summer school and I am sure that they are fairly compensated for it. There are some that seek other employment during the summer months and I am sure that they are fairly compensated for it. And for those that chooose to sit around and munch on BonBons all summer, well, I just hope they know how to live on a budget, and save some cash during those 9 months that they work so they can get through the other 3 on a little more then bonsbons.

Well, no, it's an annual salary of $40,000.

Teachers are not paid per hour or week or month. They are paid a salary in exchange for rendering a service over the course of the school year which happens to be 9 or 10 months. To "annualize" their compensation over the full year is...well...ignorant.

Thats quite possible the stupidest thing I have ever read. Why dont you officiate for free? School teachers go to college and pay for four years of college to be trained. Many of US feel that we owe the younger generation. For school teachers to work for free...stop smoking crack.

LOL...40,000 would be a big raise here in VA. I started out at about 28,000 a few years ago. Teachers are severly underpaid.

I can tell you as a son of a teacher, they get paid 9 months out of the year, not a full 12 months. They might have a salary, but they will not get paid for 3 months at all unless they teach summer school or pick up extra teaching opportunities that might pay some money. I do not know about anyone else, but not getting any money coming in for 3 months would hurt me. On top of that, many do not make a lot of money to begin with. Now my mother who is a college professor has opportunities to teach and make other income that a HS teacher will not have the opportunity to make. She takes extra teaching positions that might be over the weekends at satellite programs and make extra money that way. That is not something a HS teacher can do in many cases if at all. And one of the problems is that if a teacher is working a private school, those teachers usually gets less than someone teaching at a public school.

Teaching is a big sacrifice for those that choose to do it. I do not envy their position. That is why I never considered being one myself.

Peace

Speaking as a teacher myself, I would have to say that I am not necessarily "underpaid"...we pay our bills. We will never be rich. I love what I do (most days)...also, I am paid year-round, they just pro-rate my 185 day salary over a full 12 months, and rake in the interest the money earns in a bank account waiting to be paid to me. Oh well...but to say that I am overpaid is ridiculous. If I could charge the hourly rate charged by most day-care providers in this area, I would be making around $92,000 per year (for the 180 days, based on number of students and hours they are in my "care")...so whoever it was that siad we are overpaid is seriously on drugs...

And btw, my wife (also a teacher) and I home-schooled our children for several years also, and while it has advantages, there are some serious drawbacks there also...

Not if they can't even spell SEVERELY they aren't. You get what you're worth. :D

Teachers are (in general) paid what the market will bear. If the pay rate is "too low", people will stop teaching (or not go into teaching) and the rate will rise. If your school district is not getting enough (qualified) applicants for open positions, the rate is too low. If you are getting many more applicants than are needed, the rate is too high.

Look, I don't think the debate was over gettin 9 paychecks or 12. Hell, I used to work for a school district that gave their teachers the options to take it over 9 months or 12. That didn't change the total annual salary one way or the other. And heck, I've known teachers taht worked as bellmen for hotels in the summer. The bottom line is, teachers work 9 months out of the year, and they get compensated accordingly. If you can't make it on that, change careers, or do something besides sit around all summer eating bonbons.

Not as ignorant as what you have written.

Takes one to know one... who has smoked some "crack”.

The next time you want to use your race as evidence for your intelligence, try using your profane philosophy on another person.

You couldn't write a legitimate paper on the origins of "crack".

A college education does not guarantee what you are expected to earn on a job. Just because you earned a degree and your teaching credentials does not equate you are entitled to a high salary.

One should be proud to teach others whatever salary they are given.

I earn my officials pay regardless if I do it for free or for a game fee that others offer me.

The bottom line is, teachers work 9 months out of the year, and they get compensated accordingly. If you can't make it on that, change careers, or do something besides sit around all summer eating bonbons. [/B][/QUOTE]Well, on the plus side, not many teachers send out their exams and exam answer on the internet before their students write that exam.

I think that I'll stick with the teachers' side.

Spoken like someone who is not a teacher and doesn't have to try to live on what a teacher makes in many states.

And I like the use of the word "given" there - implying that my salary is a "gift", not something I work my a$$ off for.

And btw, I am proud of what I do, and I'm pretty dextering good at it too...but that doesn't mean I'm gonna do it for free.

I'm not sure how, but I seemed to have been forwarded to http://www.teaching.com while reading this thread....is it possible to get back to http://www.officialforum.com?

Thanks!

I have to strongly disagree w/ 2 comments made previously on this thread: "when in doubt, throw them out" and "the varsity coaches watch the prelim. game to see how much they can get away with in the varsity game". Those viewpoints could not possibily be more wrong - in my opinion.

The GREAT officials exercise excellent judgement and outstanding game management. When the situation calls for it, you penalize and eject. But not every situation is the same and should not be handled the same. Yes, rules are rules - but the interpretation and application of the rules seperate the poor from the average, average from good, good from great, and great from outstanding.


Just my two cents worth.

I agree that some teachers are underpaid. It is a sad day when a teacher is paid not for the quality of the teaching but for the number of years on the job. My children have had teachers that were not at all good and others that were great. The one that was not very good made a noticable amount more than the others because she had been there longer. This is the effect of teacher's unions. They protect the bad and limit the good.

The other main issue regarding money is not so much the amont teachers are paid but the amount of revenue consumed by the school. In our school district, the average classroom size is 27 and the amount spent per student by the school system for all costs is $10,000 per student (that includes benefits, salarys, capital costs, supplies, etc.) That's $270,000 per classroom. If teachers are only getting $40,000, I'd like to know where the other $230,000 is going???? The buildings don't cost that much. I'd expect the largest cost to the the teachers but they're not even 20% of the total.

And don't forget that that's only for in-school time.

If I were to add up all of my time in school, all of my time doing lesson plans/grading papers/tests/quizzes/etc. (none of which I can do while actually at work), extra help sessions, athletic department duties, and dormitory supervision, I would be making somewhere around $0.45/hour.

Same as with reffing, I'm not doing this for the money!

Oh where? Oh where has my little post gone, morphed into a teach or not to teach debate. You just gotta love this board!!!!

You must be new around here. :p

I agree with what you have written. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised if you were to find tax payer monies being misappropriated while viewing your school districts annual financial reports and to notice extremely high salaries for non-teacher positions, including the districts superintendents, board members, etc.

Do you have any idea how much education is required to be a district superintendent?

Do you realize that most board members are unpaid elected servants?

Bob is right, it's supply and demand. In many places there seems to be a short supply, though, and the teachers aren't being paid more to attract more teachers -- they just do with less.

E.g. requirements for a school district superintendent;


You can not pay more with monies you do not have.

They do not have to "just do with less". Do the math dude. Use the expected funds to supply the necessary teachers. Subtract a percentage of annual income from management (principles, superintendents, etc.) to accommodate hiring and retaining skilled teachers.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/ac/sa/salaries0304.asp

------------------------------------------------------------

Julian Guthrie, OF THE SF EXAMINER STAFF

Probe of woman paid to fix sewing machines:

The San Francisco Unified School District has spent a half-million dollars over the last 10 years for a full-time sewing machine repair person, even though sewing programs had all but ended, The Examiner has learned.

The discovery has prompted a criminal investigation by the San Francisco district attorney's office and drawn sharp criticism from board members who question the district's ability to manage money and staff.

"This appears to be the worst example of a blatant misuse of public funds," said board member Juanita Owens. "I'm almost speechless. Why didn't a supervisor question how there could still be so many sewing machines? Sewing? I thought sewing classes ended in the '60s. Anyway, this calls for an investigation of personnel involved.

Our (incoming) Superintendent (Arlene Ackerman) needs to review the facts and, possibly, remove the managers who were involved."

Although only three of the district's 162 schools have sewing programs, district managers never questioned Mary Kay Baldwin's salary of nearly $50,000 a year. Every month, managers signed off on Baldwin's neatly written expense vouchers claiming she drove as many as 532 miles to repair machines at dozens of schools which don't have sewing machines. Never did anyone stop to ask: Sewing classes?

Baldwin, 51, resigned June 1, after independent auditors began investigating school district records. She is being investigated by the district attorney's office, a spokesperson confirmed. Her expense reports and employment history were obtained by The Examiner under the California Public Records Act…