Good question from another forum......

Throw-in question. The thrower, A1, jumps forward and his body is airborne and completely through the plane of the boundary line in-bounds when he releases the throw-in. The throw-in is then legally completed.

Legal? Violation?

Rules citation?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:35 AM]

Let's see. Since I just read this on the other board, my guess is it's a violation -- as OMT pointed out. :D

Violation -

SECTION 2 THROW-IN PROVISIONS
ART. 1 . . . The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.


[Edited by IREFU2 on Dec 8th, 2005 at 08:40 AM]

I just changed the original question slightly. Answer it now.

If he can manage to keep his feet over the spot until it's released, it's legal.

Rules citation for an end-line throw-in?

4.42.6 note: the thrower must keep one foot on or over the spot until the ball is released.

Doesn't this rule apply to all throw-ins?

yes, with the exception of after a made basket and being able to run the in line.

AS IREFU2 said, there is no spot to keep a foot over. The note isn't applicable to an end-line non-spot throw-in.

off-topic warning: This post contains off-topic material. Any damage that may be caused by veering attention is not the responsibility of the post-er, since this warning constitutes legal transfer of burden to the reader.

This reminds me of a player on a soccer team that played against my son's team. This guy would hold the ball in both hands above his head about 10 back from the boundary line. He would take a step or two, and then jump forward and down onto his hands with the ball still being held, and execute a complete hand-spring (or fly-spring, if you're a gymnastics expert). After his feet came over the top and landed on the ground, the momentum of his rotation as his upper body came up, gave the ball incredible force. If he aimed carefully, he could easily have gotten it clear out of bounds on the far side without it ever touching the ground. The first goal this team scored was when this kid in-bounded the ball from nearly mid-field toward the goal. One of their players was expecting this, and headed the ball into the net uncontested since my son's team was completely unprepared for this play.

Case 7.6.2 applies also - for a designated spot throw-in, anyway!

Just when does vertical become horizontal?

What if A1 had backed up and then jumped forward, they are allowed to move up within the spot.

By rule they are still OOBs 4-35-3, so are they carrying the spot location with them?

Doesn't apply for an end-line non-spot throw-in also though, does it? Or does it? :)

Since I missed the "How many angels are on the head of a pin" discussion, is this a case of an event not specifically covered in the rules?

But we did say in an earlier thread, i think....the opposite was TRUE right... Question??? once the ball has been released by the thrower, opponents may break the throw in boundary plane???

Once the ball is release, he can break the plane or move off of the spot. As long as he/she has the ball, he/she must remain on/over the spot.

Yes. Is the intent of the rule to prevent such a movement? Does the word "Depth" imply only a direction to the OOB side of the boundary line or does it include over the court as well? (we know it doesn't include *on* the court)

...but don't forget that defense still can't touch the ball on the oob side of the plane, even after it's been released.

...but don't forget that defense still can't touch the ball on the oob side of the plane, even after it's been released. [/B][/QUOTE]Say what? Even if the defender's hands were in-bounds before the ball was released?

Rules reference?

Say what? Even if the defender's hands were in-bounds before the ball was released?

Rules reference? [/B][/QUOTE]

uh oh, I think I've seen this one before. I'll go make the popcorn.

Yes they can on any pass released onto the floor, they cannot touch the ball being passed to a teammate OOB on a throw-in after a made or awarded goal.

Violation per Rule 4-42 notation, the ball was released while not having at least one foot over the designated spot.

Depth to me applies to the thrower's spot with unlimited depth from that point going backwards and not further forward beyond the boundary line.

So......what's the call if it <b>isn't</b> a designated spot throw-in--i.e. after a made shot?

outside is not inside
 

That depends upon how you interpret the following parts of 7-5-7:

"and from any point outside the end line"

"a teammate(s) outside the boundary line"


To me the presence of the word "outside" in the rule means this way of making a throw-in is illegal even during a non-designated-spot end line throw-in.

Re: outside is not inside
 

Then why isn't it a violation if the thrower has some miscellaneous body parts, like his arms, <b>inside</b> the end line while he's making the throw-in?

As you know all the other provisions written for the designated-spot throw-in still apply when a team is permitted to run the end line. The only differences are what is specified in 7-5-7. Therefore, he only has to keep one foot on or over "any point outside the end line" instead of the designated spot.

That's nice.

Are you gonna answer the question above though? :D

I thought I did. We must be thinking of these statements in a different light.
I intended to convey that the point where the throw-in is made from has to be considered to be where the player's foot is, not where his hands, head, knees, etc. are, nor from where the ball is released.
According to the rules that point must be outside the end line. So he has to keep at least one foot back. That makes him "outside." That's all I meant.

How did you take my post? :)

As saying that "outside" in R7-5-7 was all-inclusive.

If "outside" isn't all-inclusive, then why should it apply only to a foot and not an arm? What language in R7-5-7 sez one is OK and the other one isn't-- if that body part happens to be the one "inside"? :confused:

This is where those other provisions of the throw-in all written for designated-spot throw-ins but which still apply unless overridden by something in 7-5-7 come in, specifically the note following 9-2-11.

This is where those other provisions of the throw-in all written for designated-spot throw-ins but which still apply unless overridden by something in 7-5-7 come in, specifically the note following 9-2-11.

[/B][/QUOTE]And where may I read that those provisions written for designated spot-throw-ins also apply to endline non-spot throw-ins? I can't seem to find that anywhere in <b>my</b> rule book. :D

I think you can fit 123,687 angels on the head of a pin.

Re: outside is not inside
 

It also depends on how you interpret 4-35-3 "The location of an airborne player ... is the same as at the time the player was last in contact with the floor ..."

Define "head"?

Do the angels have to be totally inside the plane of the head? Or can parts of them be outside? Does it matter which parts?

Of course you're right, but I'm keeping this up until Nevada's head explodes. :D

They have to be completely within the cone of headicality.

Headicality?

Somehow, that sounds dirty to me.....

Not bad, just dirty.....

And where may I read that those provisions written for designated spot-throw-ins also apply to endline non-spot throw-ins? I can't seem to find that anywhere in <b>my</b> rule book. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

You can't. However, if any of the provisions of 9-2 are broken by the throwing team during an end line throw-in do you call a violation? Then you obviously know that they still apply.

You can't. However, if any of the provisions of 9-2 are broken by the throwing team during an end line throw-in do you call a violation? <font color = red>Then you obviously know that they still apply</font>.

[/B][/QUOTE]Apply to what? Under exactly what provision listed under R9-2 is the thrower committing a violation? Exactly what article of 9-2 is being violated by the thrower?

I just can't seem to find one in <b>my</b> R9-2.

The thrower can't be committing a violation under R9-2-1. That article <b>very</b> specifically sez that it applies <b>only</b> to designated spot throw-ins. So.....what other article in R9-2 is being violated, Nevada?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 10th, 2005 at 09:44 AM]

I was about to say that the language in 7-5-7, any point outside the end line, is simply substituted for designated- spot in 9-2-1, but then I realized that this can't be true because the "thrower" may put the ball on the floor OOB or pass it to an OOB teammate and then leave the end line prior to the release of the throw-in pass when the throw-in is an end line throw-in.

Hmmm... all I can say is that 7-5-7 seems to be infinged here, but maybe not. Perhaps we should consider this jumping thrower to still be making the throw-in from a point outside the end line since that is where he jumped from.

Also, there is no penalty provided for violating 7-5-7.

If really pressed, the only rule I could point to in this case to defend calling a violation is 9-2-5. Carry the ball onto the court.

OK, I'm pressing you.

How can the thrower carry the ball onto the court if no part of the thrower <b>ever</b> touches the court in-bounds? And the NOTE after 9-2-11 sez the thrower may break the plane as long as they don't <b>touch</b> the inbounds area before the throw-in is released?

BOOM!!! That was my head exploding. :D

I don't know, JR. The more we go through this the more I am ready to rule that the jump throw-in is legal when the end line running privilege is in effect.

Have a good day, Nevada. Gotta take the dogs for a walk- in the damn snow.

And I don't wanna hear that it's 80 in Nevada either.

During an endline throw-in, if the ball is thrown onto the court but nobody touches it and it goes out of bounds on the sideline, where does the next throw-in take place?

From the spot of the original throw-in along the end line.

Is this at the spot of where the player threw it from? If the player runs to the corner and then throws it out of bounds, is the spot in the corner or where every you choose on the endline?

Thanks a ton. Now I've got to clean the coffee off of my monitor, and I don't even drink coffee! :D

The spot from where the player threw the ball is what you use. In your example, that would be over in the corner.
Rules citation is 9-2 Penalty (Section 2).


Keep asking good questions. There are many people here who will provide you with good clarification. :)

OK...here's a question that has been confusing some of our officials around these parts.

NFHS
Throw-in: Player A1 is holding the ball OOB for a throw-in, A2 fouls B1...Team B is in the bonus.
Does Team B get a throw-in or bonus FT's for B1?

NCAA:
Same question.

NFHS:Yes, there is no team control during a throw-in Bonus FT's
NCAA: I am not too sure.


[Edited by truerookie on Dec 12th, 2005 at 10:40 AM]

NFHS:Yes, there is no team control during a throw-in Bonus FT's
NCAA: I am not too sure.


[Edited by truerookie on Dec 12th, 2005 at 10:40 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

NCAA: There is TC on a throw-in. No FTs for a TC foul. B's ball for a TI.