But the defense DID run through the pick. That's the point. Or are you saying that since the defense also fell, she didn't run through?

Barry and Hawk's Coach: I'm not sure what you would call the visual field of the defender. She was looking straight ahead, and the screener was right in front of her. The contact was torso to torso. And she didn't try to avoid contact. She may or may not have seen the screen, but the second-to-the-last defender went around the screen, so this last one should have had some clue that there was something or someone there.

And it was obvious to me that neither the trail nor the center saw the play. They were both looking well forward, with their backs to the situation. I'm not saying all this to be harsh or critical. But it WAS a mistake, and it gave me something to think about -- even when I'm that good (not if, but when!) I'll still be making the occasional big mistake. So I'd better learn how to handle it...

[Edited by rainmaker on May 19th, 2001 at 03:01 AM]

Juulie - sometimes what you may perceive as a mistake really is not. Remember last week when we called four offensive fouls on that post player? He kept putting his arm around the defender to hold him back when the defender would try to get around to front him?

After the game, I heard his coach complaining to a parent who came late that we called those fouls and he couldn't understand why his guy "never" had an offensive foul called on him before, and then he gets four in one game. Let's assume his behavior in other games was the same (I can't imagine he never held before) and it "never" got called. Whose mistake is that - ours or the refs he had in those games?

Actually, it's probably his coach trying to rationalize why they lost. :)

Besides your humor Mark, you use discretion wisely.
The best statement I have seen for officiating as far as working with your partner is:"See globally,call locally".
If all officials would do this the coaches wouldnt try to divide the officials. I am 100% in favor of discussing in private any call you might have a question about.

Remember we are all officials, we have are reasons for the calls or no-calls that we make.(No calls we elect to make are always perceived by others as mistakes). A lot of the threads that are on here the remark is "Well I would have to see exactly what happened, or I would assume this happened". In the comment about the collision on the screen. The officials probable felt the contact was incidental. Good screen.....contact made......Defender did not push through screen...No foul! Crowd reaction(Home team did not get call) REACTION!!! Now I did not see this. My question to rainmaker( I'm not picking on you)>

You saw the play......crash....then a split second goes by you look at the officials(now they are looking away from the play. Are we sure that they did not see it? And elected to make a no-call?

AK ref SE

When viewed alone, this is certainly a foul on the defender for running through the screen. However, when viewed in the context of the play, I can easily see a no-call. It sounds like the <em>real</em> play was well ahead of the contact. To call such a foul, especially at the pro level, would actually give an advantage to the fouler by negating the opportunity for a relatively easy fast break basket.

Cameron-
That is good philosophy! Seeing the whole play. That takes practice. When I started out calling basketball, I had quick whistles(did not see if the basket went or not) Did not let the game flow. A foul was a foul!

AK ref SE

To me, whether there was excessive contact or not on the
screen is not the point here. Juulie claims that neither
the C or T was looking at the play. If this is true then
they really messed up. (Frankly, since this would be
such a huge mistake I kinda tend to doubt that the T
actually missed the whole play. If it did happen that way
then I'm sure someone got reamed after the game.)

Just goes to prove we are not all Billy Packers' err.. I mean perfect.

Okay, Okay, I get the point. I'm not going to go on and defend my judgment here, especially at the expense of someone who can't defend himself. Although actually, I'd be glad if the T and C on this play were on this board, as I would like to hear what they would say. Of course it is possible that my analysis of this play is out of line, and that I didn't see something that made a big difference in this no-call.

In my own defense, though, I don't think I'm being like Billy Packer, who repeatedly demonstrates his complete lack of understanding of the rules and of officiating principals. And I'm also not disagreeing only about philosophies. It really looked to me like a mistake, and I was looking with eyes that saw the whole picture, from my point of view. I mean, even if I agree that I shouldn't have asked this particular question, or should have asked it differently, I'm still not totally out to lunch!

At this point in the thread I gotta ask, how does one learn from watching others' work if one can't make judgments about right and wrong? Am I supposed to assume that the other ref that I'm watching is always right? I'm not saying this to be superior. There is no way I could have done as good a job as those guys on the floor that night. I'm not trying to keep them in their place or anything like that. I was trying to watch and learn and pick up something from them. Is it okay to discuss my perceptions in a smaller, more private venue, such as with Padgett before a game at the Hoop on Sunday? How am I supposed to work this stuff through?

[Edited by rainmaker on May 23rd, 2001 at 05:11 PM]

Rainmaker-
I am speaking for myself only. I hope that you did not think I was questioning your judgement or what you saw. It is like I said above. Unless we(people reading the thread) saw this play or any other situation in this forum that is discussed. It is hard to say what is right or wrong. I learn alot from you and other officials on this site. When I watch other officials at games, I look at their mechanics, where the are on the floor, and most important how they handle themselves during heated moments in a game. My though on judgement...... judgment is something that is unique to the individual, and with anything else practice, practice practice.
I apologize if you took my comments as an attack.

AK ref SE

Juulie - I have always found your questions to me to be intelligent and pertinent. Plus - you are always receptive to comments and try to learn from them. This is exactly how we referees improve. Don't stop. As you know, anything you want to ask me this weekend will be welcome. I got a lot of help when I was starting out and I feel it is my obligation to do the same for others.

BTW - I got my summer league schedule from Lav today in the mail and it doesn't look like we will be working any games together. I see you get a few with our friend, Jeff "The Tall Guy." Most of my games are at the main gym at Tigard so I will be air conditioned :)

Hey, no need to defend yourself, I didn't mean to shut you
up, make you doubt your own judgement or certainly not
stifle your great questions & posts. Certainly do watch
refs at the higher levels, if you see their mistakes then
great, it means you're thinking about your own game.
Continue to question what you see, no one is infallible. But I'm inclined to give the guys (gals) on the floor the
benefit of the doubt simply because they are not here to
defend themselves and what you described is a huge screw-up
on their part (well, at least the T's part). Anyways,
my apologies if I was out of line in my post.