In another thread, zebraman wrote
I've heard this, and I'm pretty sure that it's discussed a lot in women's ball. But my question is, what kind of communication do you need? If the ball is in my primary, I'm on it. If it's not in my primary, then I'm off-ball.

Why does "opening up" to the play make anybody feel better about the coverage? If the ball is right next to your partner in his/her primary, don't you have to assume that s/he has on-ball coverage? I mean, if s/he doesn't have the coverage in that situation, you've got much bigger problems than communication.

Anybody want to share?

Around here, it's discussed in both mens and womens ball.

I'll just list one example. Ball is in the T's primary, but it's being dribbled towards the C's area approximately top-of-the-key depth. How does T know when C has taken the ball so that T can release it to C and turn to ref off-ball? C can take a step up (my preference) or make a false count or some people "open up" to show the T that the C now has it.

There are lots of times that the ball is right on the boundary of coverage between two officials. We don't want both of them reffing it and we don't want neither of them reffing it right?

Z

There are times when this might be appropriate, but I think Chuck is referring to an official having the need to do this in situations that should be obvious. Also, if this is discussed during the pre-game, it shouldn't need an official to open up or take a step up. What should happen is the official(s) should move to get an open angle on the match-up, regardless of whether they are the C or T. If this happens, it will be clear to all involved that four eyes are on the ball.

I always thought it was about positioning, if the T has opened up and is facing the ball then I am looking off ball if I'm the C. Thoughts?

Just because the ball has entered my primary area doesn't necessarily mean I will "automatically" pick it up...for example, if I am L (NCAAW) and the ball is passed down into my corner, but I also have two post players who are trying to decide if they are playing basketball or are part of WWE, then I will probably take a step closer to the post players and that will communicate to my T that he/she needs to take the ball in the corner...there are other examples if you would like more.

Please. Thanks. :)

OK...1)I am L. Ball below free throw line on C's side, so I rotate over. Technically the ball is now in my primary, but because the C (now T) had the play from the beginning, I will stay on the post players. I communicate that by keeping my body turned toward the post players.

2)I am C...ball is dribbled across top of key area into my primary, but I have post players which are a competitive match-up and don't want to let that go yet. I step down away from the ball or turn my body so I am looking at post, that tells my T not to leave the ball yet...

More?

1. It is not a good idea to close yourself off from the ball whether in a women's or men's game. The new T should still have the play from beginning to end all the way to the basket or until the ball is passed. In the men's game we would say that we shouldn't back out or leave this match-up when the rotation occurs. The burden is not on you to show you aren't watching this match-up; the burden should be on your partner to not leave the match-up.

2. If the ball is in your primary, it isn't a good idea to turn away from it whether you are watching the post or not. IMO, I would step up and not down. That, and the location of multiple match-ups should be a clue to that L that a rotation is needed, if he/she hasn't already started to come over. By turning away, you cut off your angle of possible plays where you are the only one that could see what happens. Something could happen where it is physically impossible for the T to see and physically impossible/ridiculous for the L to see/call. If you have turned away to indicate you aren't watching the match-up, who is going to call this?

The more I learn about the women's game, the less I like it. You rotate ball-side, the ball is in your primary, and you don't officiate on-ball? The ball comes right at you into your primary, but you don't officiate on-ball? I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever; especially in the first case.

Wouldn't it make more sense just to say that when the ball is in your primary, officiate the ball and trust your partners to officiate off-ball, since that's what they're supposed to do anyway.

So basically you are saying that as soon as the ball comes into your primary, you need to leave the competitive match-up you have been watching develop for the last 4 or 5 seconds to go immediately pick up the ball and hope that one of your partners - who has just switched their attention to said competitive match-up - makes the right call, not having seen any of the previous action. And you are saying that as soon as I rotate I have to pick the ball up just because it's in my primary, even tho my T(previously C) who has been on the "play" from it's beginning is still right there?

And you think the NCAAW mechanics make no sense?

And to tomegun, you are correct...I don't keep my body "closed off" (your words) to a play any longer than to let my partner know I haven't picked the ball up...

I'm not saying tjat you have to leave the competitive matchup. If the ball comes into your primary unguarded, then you can pick up the ball and still watch those two guys in the post. If the ball comes into your primary with a defender, then you have a new competitive matchup that has priority over that matchup in the post. If you can watch them both, great. But if not, the official who has the primary area should pick up the primary matchup, which is always the ballhander and defender.

And your partner will pick up that post action immediately. If you haven't blown the whistle yet, then your partner hasn't missed too much. Otherwise you'd have already called a foul in the post, right?


Yes, otherwise, why rotate? If your C can handle the ballhandler fine, then let him/her. If you rotate over, then as soon as the rotation is completed, your C gives up the play and rotates to Trail and you have on-ball coverage. I mean, that's exactly why you rotated, isn't it?

To try to answer Chuck's original question:

NCAAW: I'm L. Ball comes down, strong side, below the foul line. This is the L's primary. Many officials here, when they open up to the play, will attempt to make quick eye-contact with the T and open up their palms briefly towards the ball, indicating that they are "accepting" the matchup and the ball. When this occurs, any post players on the block on strong side now become the T's responsibility. Think of it as the T have a 45 degree angle down to the block and officiating that post matchup.

*Disclaimer* I am newbie NCAAW and pretty much just learned all of this at a camp this summer over the course of 3 hours. If any of this is wrong, more experienced guys, let me know for both my benefit and the board's!

Hmmm...gotta disagree with these points. The primary competitive match-up is NOT necessarily the ball-handler and dribbler...it could be...it usually is...but not ALWAYS.

And no, I don't rotate so I can have on-ball coverage. I rotate because the post players went/are going/will be going across...I'm not sure why you would rotate just to get to on-ball coverage. Sure that happens - you rotate and end up picking up the ball right away, but that shouldn't be why you rotate.

Maybe this is just one of those differences between NCAAM and NCAAW mechanics...don't know enough about your side of it to say...

Well, in high school, I try to communicate on-ball to a partner who is ball-watching, and shouldn't be looking in my area. I think it's good to maintain periodic eye contact, and when I glance at a partner who's watching the ball that's clearly in my area I'll try to gesture or hint that I've got the ball and he (usually a "he") needs to watch off-ball. I also appreciate it if I glance at a partner who's concentrating (and signalling) on-ball, because it reminds me to practice what I preach.

Wait. Stop the presses.

You rotate counter to where the ball is? If the ball's on your side as L but there's a good match up on the opposite block you will rotate?

Seriously, what the heck does the C get payed to do?

I don't think he gets payed at all. I think he gets paid.

Maybe in *your* area he gets paid.

In my area he gets payed.

But that is why you live where you do.

Oh yeah....shut up.

Are you bitter?

I don't know.

Why don't you take a lick & let me know.

Haven't you got anything better to do?

Oh, I forgot. The "send out the exam and answers" season is over, isn't it. You need something to do until it's time to send out next year's exam.

At least get it right. I only sent out the exam. Someone else was providing all the answers.

I'm sure he was. Is there really a difference though between you two?

Btw, do you charge for this little service or is it free for the other....um....people just like you? You know, the people that think the rest of us are stoopid for actually reading the rule book and trying to learn the rules. I gotta admit it really is <b>so</b> much easier doing exams your way.

Keep doing what you do best.

I agree with Chuck. When the ball is in your area it is primary!. You rotate across strong ide because the play is most likely going there. The play may go to the post so if ball is out a ways rotate to ref the post but the reason you are there is because that's where the ball is coming

Chuck-

Quick question for you about the mens side. If the player is dribbling the ball from T's primary to C's primary and you are the C... Do you pick up the player right away??

[Edited by BOBBYMO on Dec 7th, 2005 at 10:35 AM]

Bobbymo, if the ball is dribbled from the L's primary to the C's primary, there will more than likely be many players blocking out the L.
The answer to your question is YES! Who would be watching the ball if the person primary official made things too complicated by not watching it?

If a young official is looking at this thread - please do not be so smart that you don't look at the ball when it is in your primary! I would have to think about some exceptions, but this is generally not a good idea/philosophy.

Correct...I don't think I ever disagreed with that...however, you also agree that you don't rotate and automatically pick the ball up - you stay on the post and when the ball comes in to the post, then you are on-ball. Isn't that what I said?

Sigh...sometimes these "conversations" are just way easier in person than talking to a monitor...plus my kids think I'm losing it!

It's true that on the men's side it's possible to rotate and not pick up the ball. But that will be b/c the ball is not in your primary. In other words, you're rotating b/c the ball is high in the C's primary or the C has the ball and 8 players.

But when you rotate, IF the ball is in your new primary, you pick it up immediately.

One difference that we haven't talked about is that the Lead's primary area is much much bigger in Women's coverage than in Men's coverage. In Women's, you have to cover all the way to the sideline. We don't even have to cover all the way to the 3-point line. For men, if the ball is in the Lead's primary, then it pretty much is in or near the post already.

But I don't think that really makes a huge difference to the discussion. I still think that when you rotate, if the ball is in your primary, then you pick up on-ball coverage as soon as the rotation is completed. Similarly, if you're the Lead, then you pick up the ball as soon as it comes into your primary, and trust your partners to work off-ball.

Chuck sums it up best and I agree with him 100%. When you rotate and ball is in primary you better get it. The post may become secondary coverage...