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-   -   how do you watch a game... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/23509-how-do-you-watch-game.html)

JohnBark Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:33am

i've been out with an injury for the past month. so, i've watched alot of basketball. and i was wondering how you watch a game as a spectator? do you only watch the T official or do you watch the L official? do you watch only a certain area of the court like you were the T or L official?

so, how to do watch the game and get the most out of the game you are watching?

i always here how official say they watch the game differently once you are an official.

so, how do you watch a game with the intention of learning and getting better?

thanks!

zebraman Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:42am

I try to watch the entire crew and see how they communicate and work together. If I see an official that I consider excellent, I will watch him/her solo for a while at all positions (L, T and C) and try to pick up some great things that they do. What do they do better than me that I need to improve?What kind of non-verbal communication do they do to show their partners when they are on-ball and off-ball? Do they stay in their primary coverage area except for the train wreck that they go get because it makes the game better? Do they project supreme confidence? Are their mechanics clear and the right speed and tempo?

Z

IREFU2 Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:49am

I find myself watching the officials more than the game itself. When a call is made, I try to get the person who committed the foul. I see myself as the imaginary 4th official.

ChrisSportsFan Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
I try to watch the entire crew and see how they communicate and work together. If I see an official that I consider excellent, I will watch him/her solo for a while at all positions (L, T and C) and try to pick up some great things that they do. What do they do better than me that I need to improve?What kind of non-verbal communication do they do to show their partners when they are on-ball and off-ball? Do they stay in their primary coverage area except for the train wreck that they go get because it makes the game better? Do they project supreme confidence? Are their mechanics clear and the right speed and tempo?

Z

DITTO, it's alot different watching a game once you are an official. Fans, coaches and players mostly watch the ball.

Junker Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:23pm

I have partial season tickets at Iowa State with a good friend that is an official and his wife. She hates sitting with us because 90% of the time we're talking about the officials rather than the game. She especially hates it when we have to mime big timer mechanics on the way to the car afterwards. The part I hate most is sitting next to the "well informed fan" screaming about fouls, 3 seconds and over the back from the second to the top row at Hilton because he certainly has a better look at the play than the officials on the floor.

SeanFitzRef Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:50pm

I tend to watch more off-ball stuff now, because there are subtle nuances that can be picked up spectating that help when I get back on the court. Watch the C a lot. Try not to watch NBA ball because there are some things that the officials do that are just crazy when you see them from a distance.

I don't fuss as much about the officials either way now. :D

Back In The Saddle Tue Dec 06, 2005 01:38pm

I was watching a game last week where two new officials were working. There were whole aspects of the game that they just weren't seeing. Apparently neither were the fans or teams, 'cause they weren't getting any grief. But I was seeing them. After a while you develop a sense of where to look and when and what to expect to see.

If you want to practice that kind of stuff when watching, then practice watching off-ball and anticipating what the offense is doing. Watch for where screens will be set and how they free up shooters. Watch for cutter and see how they are defended. That kind of stuff has helped me.

tomegun Tue Dec 06, 2005 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
Try not to watch NBA ball because there are some things that the officials do that are just crazy when you see them from a distance.

WOW! You are really missing out. Can you explain this comment a little more?
Say what you will about the game, but nobody does it better than NBA officials. No group of officials are scrutinized and analyzed like NBA officials. No officials talk to coaches and players as much as NBA officials. No officials take as much from coaches and players as NBA officials. Nobody works to get angles like NBA officials. No group of officials are as consistent across the board as NBA officials. I could go on and on.......Wow! I'm anxiously waiting to hear why you would make that statement.

Junker Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:04pm

I think what the post is referring to is that NBA officials are not good models for HS officials because their game is so much more advantage/disadvantage and their mechanics are far different. Personally, I don't like the NBA game. I know the officials are very good. If they weren't, they wouldn't be there. It's just that a lot of what they do doesn't translate well into the high school game.

tomegun Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
I think what the post is referring to is that NBA officials are not good models for HS officials because their game is so much more advantage/disadvantage and their mechanics are far different. Personally, I don't like the NBA game. I know the officials are very good. If they weren't, they wouldn't be there. It's just that a lot of what they do doesn't translate well into the high school game.

That, IMO, is a false message that we should stop immediately! A lot of what they do is work to get the best angles and best court coverage possible. They spend money on the science of the 3-person system. That is the main point of all of this: getting plays right. Their mechanics are secondary to calling the right fouls and violations. They are also an example of sharing information and putting it into action. On the high school and college level, we share new information and many choose to interpret it differently, apply it differently and in some cases ignore it. As far as advantage/disadvantage their philosophy has trickled down and is right; RSBQ is universal. Getting open angles is universal. Rotating ball-side, although done with different criteria, is universal.

Metrodom Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:18pm

I watch the officials and their positioning on the floor. Primarily, I like to watch the officials who have "off ball" coverage and look to see where/what they are looking at.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
I think what the post is referring to is that NBA officials are not good models for HS officials because their game is so much more advantage/disadvantage and their mechanics are far different. Personally, I don't like the NBA game. I know the officials are very good. If they weren't, they wouldn't be there. It's just that a lot of what they do doesn't translate well into the high school game.

That, IMO, is a false message that we should stop immediately! A lot of what they do is work to get the best angles and best court coverage possible. They spend money on the science of the 3-person system. That is the main point of all of this: getting plays right. Their mechanics are secondary to calling the right fouls and violations. They are also an example of sharing information and putting it into action. On the high school and college level, we share new information and many choose to interpret it differently, apply it differently and in some cases ignore it. As far as advantage/disadvantage their philosophy has trickled down and is right; RSBQ is universal. Getting open angles is universal. Rotating ball-side, although done with different criteria, is universal.

Advantage/disadvantage?

You're kidding, aren't you, Tom?

Hell, I can watch an NBA game and never have a clue what a foul is from one whistle to the next. Or traveling or palming, for that matter either. Guys taking four steps on lay-ups....wassup with that? I can't figure out what the NBA philosophy is supposed to be because everything is inconsistent as hell. It's OK to put someone in the third row and a touch foul is then gets called.

The NBA is pure entertainment and is refereed as such. NCAA and high school games are still <b>games</b>. I used to be a big-time NBA fan, but I just can't stand to watch their games anymore. The lack of fundamental skills, the show-boating and trash-talking, the constant whining at officials, freaking coaches that haveta call every single offensive and defensive set, somebody like Kobe shooting 8 for 37 and some dumb announcer trying to tell me how great he is because he scored 25.....yup, the NBA...Faaaaantastic.

You can have it, Tom. I can't stand watching it anymore. Give me an NCAA game any day, and I pray that the pro philosophies stay as far away from them as possible. Jmo.

Junker Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:41pm

I agree that they are good at positioning and such, but their way of looking at advantage/disadvantage is much different than what we see at the high school level. Our player are not as skilled, strong or fast. Also, the NBA, to me, is more about entertainment and putting rear ends in the seats than it is about competition. It is officiated that way. A foul that is called on the 3rd or 4th guy coming off the bench will not be called on an all-star started because people are there to see the star. An extra step or two will be ignored if it leads to a highlight dunk. Sportsmanship is completely different than what we expect at the high school level. This is what I meant by the NBA not translating well to what most of us do. As I said, I'm sure the officials are good, but they way the league wants the game called has little to do with the games I do.

Junker Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:42pm

Way to sneak in while I was writing JR. I agree. Well said.

Dan_ref Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:48pm

Kobe went 8 for 37?

Sounds like he had a good night.

tomegun Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:55pm

I know the NBA is entertainment, so we agree on that. I can also agree that a foul on one player might not be a foul on another player, although you guys should admit it isn't as bad as it used to be.
**disclaimer** I'm not saying this to name drop.

I have been blessed to have Ronnie Nunn, Zach Zarba, Joe Forte and Greg Willard evaluate me working. The comments are on a whole different level than some D1 officials. I'm speaking purely from a mechanics POV and getting into the best position to make decisions. Whether they make decisions doesn't matter to me; if they help me get into a better position I have increased my understanding of what I need to do. That is what I'm basing my comments on. That applies to every level of officiating.

IREFU2 Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
I think what the post is referring to is that NBA officials are not good models for HS officials because their game is so much more advantage/disadvantage and their mechanics are far different. Personally, I don't like the NBA game. I know the officials are very good. If they weren't, they wouldn't be there. It's just that a lot of what they do doesn't translate well into the high school game.

That, IMO, is a false message that we should stop immediately! A lot of what they do is work to get the best angles and best court coverage possible. They spend money on the science of the 3-person system. That is the main point of all of this: getting plays right. Their mechanics are secondary to calling the right fouls and violations. They are also an example of sharing information and putting it into action. On the high school and college level, we share new information and many choose to interpret it differently, apply it differently and in some cases ignore it. As far as advantage/disadvantage their philosophy has trickled down and is right; RSBQ is universal. Getting open angles is universal. Rotating ball-side, although done with different criteria, is universal.

I use the RSBQ myself in all of my games. Got that pounded in my head at the SEC Camp.

TriggerMN Tue Dec 06, 2005 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
I have partial season tickets at Iowa State with a good friend that is an official and his wife. She hates sitting with us because 90% of the time we're talking about the officials rather than the game. She especially hates it when we have to mime big timer mechanics on the way to the car afterwards. The part I hate most is sitting next to the "well informed fan" screaming about fouls, 3 seconds and over the back from the second to the top row at Hilton because he certainly has a better look at the play than the officials on the floor.

Share the love...show me the Welmer block!!!

Junker Tue Dec 06, 2005 03:08pm

Trigger,
Kahuna and I were just talking about that at lunch the other day. Get me a game with you and I'll come up and show it off. I've worked in every part of my state, I might as well come up and do some in Canada with you.

JRutledge Tue Dec 06, 2005 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You're kidding, aren't you, Tom?

Hell, I can watch an NBA game and never have a clue what a foul is from one whistle to the next. Or traveling or palming, for that matter either. Guys taking four steps on lay-ups....wassup with that? I can't figure out what the NBA philosophy is supposed to be because everything is inconsistent as hell. It's OK to put someone in the third row and a touch foul is then gets called.

The NBA is pure entertainment and is refereed as such. NCAA and high school games are still <b>games</b>. I used to be a big-time NBA fan, but I just can't stand to watch their games anymore. The lack of fundamental skills, the show-boating and trash-talking, the constant whining at officials, freaking coaches that haveta call every single offensive and defensive set, somebody like Kobe shooting 8 for 37 and some dumb announcer trying to tell me how great he is because he scored 25.....yup, the NBA...Faaaaantastic.

You can have it, Tom. I can't stand watching it anymore. Give me an NCAA game any day, and I pray that the pro philosophies stay as far away from them as possible. Jmo.

When you look at the game from such a narrow perspective, of course you are not going to understand what is going on. The NBA is not a HS game where any little touch is expected to be called. You cannot look at the game through the same eyes.

Peace

tmp44 Tue Dec 06, 2005 04:20pm

Wazzawhat?
 
RSBQ???? Help!?!?!?!?!?

bob jenkins Tue Dec 06, 2005 05:09pm

Re: Wazzawhat?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by tmp44
RSBQ???? Help!?!?!?!?!?
Rhythm, Speed, Balance, Quickness.


WeekendRef Tue Dec 06, 2005 05:31pm

JRut backs up Jurassic
 
JRUT ,
You just backed up Jurassic's point 100%....I am not sure if you meant to do that or wanted to do that .

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 06, 2005 05:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You're kidding, aren't you, Tom?

Hell, I can watch an NBA game and never have a clue what a foul is from one whistle to the next. Or traveling or palming, for that matter either. Guys taking four steps on lay-ups....wassup with that? I can't figure out what the NBA philosophy is supposed to be because everything is inconsistent as hell. It's OK to put someone in the third row and a touch foul is then gets called.

The NBA is pure entertainment and is refereed as such. NCAA and high school games are still <b>games</b>. I used to be a big-time NBA fan, but I just can't stand to watch their games anymore. The lack of fundamental skills, the show-boating and trash-talking, the constant whining at officials, freaking coaches that haveta call every single offensive and defensive set, somebody like Kobe shooting 8 for 37 and some dumb announcer trying to tell me how great he is because he scored 25.....yup, the NBA...Faaaaantastic.

You can have it, Tom. I can't stand watching it anymore. Give me an NCAA game any day, and I pray that the pro philosophies stay as far away from them as possible. Jmo.

When you look at the game from such a narrow perspective, of course you are not going to understand what is going on. The NBA is not a HS game where any little touch is expected to be called. You cannot look at the game through the same eyes.


What narrow perspective? I don't understand?

I certainly can't understand when I see a player getting away with taking 3 or 4 steps going in for a slam one time, and another player doing the exact same thing and getting called for it. I see touch and phantom calls being made all the time in the NBA; I also see players being put into the popcorn maker and 3 officials swallowing their whistles.

I'll tell you what I don't understand. I don't understand how any team that could start C-Tim Duncan, PF-Amare Stoudamire, SF-Lebron James, PG-Dwayne Wade and SG-Allan Iverson and had a supposed all-time hall-of-fame coach running it could lose to Lithuania, Puerto Rico and Argentina. Puerto Rico, for God's sake! You're right- I sureashell can't understand the NBA when something like that happens.

You can be an apologist for the NBA if you want to be. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. <b>My</b> opinion is the NBA in it's current state absolutely sucks. It's boring as hell to watch. Everybody can dunk but very few can dribble or jump-shoot consistently. If I want to be "entertained" like the NBA is supposedly currently doing, I'll turn on ESPN2 and look for the AND1 games. They're both refereed the same way. My opinion also is that NBA officials get the best training in the world, but they're being trained to officiate a game from an "entertainment" perspective rather than an actual rules-based perspective. They call what they're told to call...and damn the actual rules.

End of another rant. :D

JRutledge Tue Dec 06, 2005 05:54pm

The same thing you say about the NBA, I can say when I watch a local HS game. I do not see many travel calls or carry calls during HS games. Those rules are also applied inconsistently. Now that is my opinion and we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I just do not think the official make any more mistakes or turn the other cheek any more than other officials.

Peace

rainmaker Tue Dec 06, 2005 07:02pm

Children, children, children!!! Please stop yelling so we can get back to a discussion of JohnBark's very interesting and illuminating question. Anyone would think you are all just hoodlums the way you carry on sometimes!

John, the way I watch a game depends on the game and the refs working it. A lot of times, I go to a game specifically to watch a certain ref work, and then, of course, I just watch that person, or at least how that person works in a team.

Sometimes, I'm working on a specific item, and then I watch for that item, such as where the refs position themselves on a press, or how they get an angle on a tough play, or when they talk to a coach, and when they don't.

Sometimes, it's just good for me to absorb general stuff such as advantage/disadvantage or the rhythm of administering a big game vs a less important game.

I usually decide ahead of time what I'm going to think about. Incidentally, I think the first thing you should work on in this way, is looking off-ball, if you don't already have it. Practicing looking away is very good for you when you're struggling with it. By doing it at someone else's game, you can really focus, and don't have to worry about other things.

Occasionally, it's fun to try to just enjoy a game from a neutral perspective. Don't watch anything in particular, don't worry about the calls. This can be constructive in giving you a "feel for the game".

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 06, 2005 07:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
I just do not think the official make any more mistakes or turn the other cheek any more than other officials.


Jmo, but I think that NBA officials probably make way <b>fewer</b> actual mistakes than officials at the lower levels. The inconsistency that I see is more the case of the NBA being "entertainment" oriented. If your employer tells you that, when in doubt, let something go because it's crowd-pleasing rather than strictly calling it by the book, then that's a heckuva lot of judgement to put on the guy with the whistle. I honestly feel that NBA refs get stuck in the middle sometimes, and way too much pressure is being put on them by the league office to meet unrealistic officiating expectations.

Again, jmo.

Btw, the NHL is exactly the same in my eyes. I loved hockey, going back to the Big Six days. What they've been playing for the last 15 years doesn't resemble hockey in any way, shape or form. The clutching, grabbing, left-wing locks(whatever the hell that is), interference, hooking, holding, etc. makes the game look like pro wrestling on ice. And again, blame the league and not the on-ice officials. The league dictated to their officials how they wanted the games to be called. The officials had to go along with them if they wanted to keep their jobs. The NHL has been as unwatchable as the NBA lately.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 06, 2005 07:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Children, children, children!!! Please stop yelling so we can get back to a discussion of JohnBark's very interesting and illuminating question. Anyone would think you are all just hoodlums the way you carry on sometimes!


Shut up.

Blame the Equal Rights Amendment for that one, not me.


tomegun Wed Dec 07, 2005 05:07am

It might be entertainment, but they are the best officials and they know how to get into position and see plays better than any other group of officials.
If we are talking about watching games to see officials, that is the best game to watch. If you want to see basketball in it's purest form, I think you will be hard pressed. The same thing you say about the NBA being entertaining is trickling down as well.

rainmaker Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:06am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Children, children, children!!! Please stop yelling so we can get back to a discussion of JohnBark's very interesting and illuminating question. Anyone would think you are all just hoodlums the way you carry on sometimes!


Shut up.

Blame the Equal Rights Amendment for that one, not me.


:confused:

M&M Guy Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Children, children, children!!! Please stop yelling so we can get back to a discussion of JohnBark's very interesting and illuminating question. Anyone would think you are all just hoodlums the way you carry on sometimes!


Shut up.

Blame the Equal Rights Amendment for that one, not me.


:confused:

That's just JR being his typical, ultra-liberal self; blaming his actions on legislation instead of taking personal responsibility. ;)

Congratulations Juulie, you're now just one of the guys.

As far as watching referees, I would much rather watch NCAA refs for how they handle games than NBA refs for the reasons already listed. It is a slightly different game, so there are many things NBA refs do mechanics-wise that I would not be able to use in other games. If there was one thing though, I wish I could hear how they interact with and handle coaches and players. That's where I wish I could pick up some pointers.

dbarr Thu Dec 08, 2005 01:33am

I was at an NBA game with a friend. I told him I was watching #41. He said, "There is no 41 out there." I said, "The referee is #41." He just laughed...couldn't understand why I was watching the officials and not the "stars".

tomegun Thu Dec 08, 2005 06:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by M&M Guy
As far as watching referees, I would much rather watch NCAA refs for how they handle games than NBA refs for the reasons already listed. It is a slightly different game, so there are many things NBA refs do mechanics-wise that I would not be able to use in other games. If there was one thing though, I wish I could hear how they interact with and handle coaches and players. That's where I wish I could pick up some pointers. [/B]
I think your opinion of watching some (not all) NCAA refs will change once you understand what it is you are really watching. Some refs, that are on TV a lot, have the worse floor mechanics in basketball. That would include being worse than high school refs.

What are the differences mechanics-wise than a college official?
1. The run across the lane. It is already trickling down to college. Many people look where they are going instead of officiating at different levels as the cross the lane. If this is the case, you might as well run across so the rotation is completed quicker.
2. Everyone rotates on fouls.
3. They take the ball out on the sideline for fouls and violations.
4. They use two hands to report.
5. They walk through players on their way to the table. This is a good thing to me.
6. Their primaries are different than men's college but the same as women's.

Can someone add more differences when it comes to mechanics (not rules)? There is nothing about their mechanics that should be different when it comes to getting open angles on plays. Since they don't jump around like clowns, there is often a difference.
I have noticed the fact that they seem to listen a lot and let the coaches and players vent. They do this with a non intimidating stance and I've been told that they do NOT use a stop sign. They want to seem more defensive or neutral. Keep in mind, they are getting cussed at almost every game.
I guess it is a personal preference to not watch NBA games and/or refs. My preference is to watch basketball no matter what. I guess that is the Indiana in me coming out!

brianp134 Thu Dec 08, 2005 03:30pm

officials do not raise hand to stop clock on OOB plays.

[Edited by brianp134 on Dec 8th, 2005 at 03:38 PM]

M&M Guy Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
Quote:

Originally posted by M&M Guy
As far as watching referees, I would much rather watch NCAA refs for how they handle games than NBA refs for the reasons already listed. It is a slightly different game, so there are many things NBA refs do mechanics-wise that I would not be able to use in other games. If there was one thing though, I wish I could hear how they interact with and handle coaches and players. That's where I wish I could pick up some pointers.
I think your opinion of watching some (not all) NCAA refs will change once you understand what it is you are really watching. Some refs, that are on TV a lot, have the worse floor mechanics in basketball. That would include being worse than high school refs.

What are the differences mechanics-wise than a college official?
1. The run across the lane. It is already trickling down to college. Many people look where they are going instead of officiating at different levels as the cross the lane. If this is the case, you might as well run across so the rotation is completed quicker.
2. Everyone rotates on fouls.
3. They take the ball out on the sideline for fouls and violations.
4. They use two hands to report.
5. They walk through players on their way to the table. This is a good thing to me.
6. Their primaries are different than men's college but the same as women's.

Can someone add more differences when it comes to mechanics (not rules)? There is nothing about their mechanics that should be different when it comes to getting open angles on plays. Since they don't jump around like clowns, there is often a difference.
I have noticed the fact that they seem to listen a lot and let the coaches and players vent. They do this with a non intimidating stance and I've been told that they do NOT use a stop sign. They want to seem more defensive or neutral. Keep in mind, they are getting cussed at almost every game.
I guess it is a personal preference to not watch NBA games and/or refs. My preference is to watch basketball no matter what. I guess that is the Indiana in me coming out! [/B]
I guess I'm not arguing which set of mechanics are better, just which ones I should watch to get better at the levels I'm in. I'm way too old, fat, and slow to ever think of being in the NBA; so I don't have those aspirations, and I'm not watching what they do. I'm probably way too old and slow to be at D-1 as well, but they're the closest to the level I'm at and want to get better at as well. Of course, there are things I can learn by watching, but it wouldn't do me any good to mirror their mechanics in my games because I wouldn't be in sync with my partners. But, I am interested in how they deal with coaches and players.

brownie_57 Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:55pm

I'm in my 4th year as a high school official and I know that I don't watch any games the same anymore after being an official. I think the biggest thing that I do know is just try to take in everything from a neutral perspective even if I'm a big fan of a particular team. I'm a student in the Orange Krush (Illinois' basketball cheering section) and often times the crowd will start yelling at the officials (especially the students around me) and I'll just say, "it was a good call." I make so many comments about the officiating at games now that other students are starting to ask me rules questions when they don't understand something.

ChuckElias Fri Dec 09, 2005 02:14pm

So far, the discussion has been about watching off-ball or mechanics, etc. Here's one other way to watch the game. I did this once and it's not easy. If you want to work on your "game awareness", then go to a game with a pad and paper.

Register the time on the game clock and shot clock after every whistle. Track the team fouls. Track the possession arrow. Record the number of every FT shooter. Log every player that subs out of the game; when the clock starts properly, cross out the numbers of the players who subbed out.

It's tough to do, but those are all things that we're supposed to know in a game anyway. It's easier to work on it while you're in the stands. :)


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