Team Control Foul
 

A1 is at the free throw line with ball in hand for a 2 shot foul . A2 pushes B2 who both behind the free throw line extended while the ball is still in A1's hand. A2 is called for the foul which is a team control foul. How would you handle this situation or apply it? Thanks.

[Edited by malloy on Nov 6th, 2005 at 09:38 AM]

Yes.

No.

I'm not really sure.

What exactly is the question again?

Sorry, I reposted my question. please reply.

How would you have handled it under the old rules?

It's a false double foul. You clear the lane and allow A1 to shoot his FTs. THen you award the ball to Team B for a throw-in.

You handle it exactly like you would have last year with one exception: You don't allow B2 to shoot FTs if B is in the bonus.

Just think of it this way: Team B is not considered to be in the bonus if Team A has team control. Think of it in that respect and you'll have no problem.

Thank you. Some referees thought that A1 lost his first free throw since it was a team control foul. And then you clear the lane for the second throw. If he made it, team B had the ball on the base line. If he missed it, It would be a throw in at the spot of the foul. Does any of that make since?

And the rest of us are feeling very left out!

Tony, I agree with your ruling. I just find it interesting that you now concur that there is team control while the FT shooter is holding or dribbling the ball prior to the release of the try. IIrc you weren't so sure of this a few months back.

:)

Shut up.

As Mr. Grammar Guy, I have to remind you that's not a question. Did you mean "Shut up, eh?"

Shut up.

No, I wasn't sure. And what did I say in that thread? "...we'll just have to wait and see what they publish."

Evenso, 4-12 doesn't specifically address FTs. But all the interps I've seen at clinics say that you treated FTs as a team control situation.

Re: Team Control Foul
 

Wouldn't this be an unsportsmanlike foul? In FIBA it would have to be called as an unsportsmanlike foul as there is no way that you could argue that A2 was contesting the ball.

Therefor, the 2 free throws for A1 are cancelled by the 2 free throws for B2. Team B resumes at the half-way line for the unsportsmanlike.

Re: Re: Team Control Foul
 

Interesting, Duane. But in NFHS rules, unsportsmanlike fouls are by definition non-contact. So this would not be an unsportsmanlike foul. If we used your line of thought -- namely, that the foul could not be a "basketball play", since the ball is not in play -- we could call it an intentional personal foul. I'd like to be around to see somebody call it that way, tho!! And if it were called that way, it's NOT a team control foul, since it's not a common foul.

Again, that's interesting and I can see why you'd do it that way, but that's not how it would be administered in NFHS rules. Unless the fouls happen at the same time (generally speaking), we penalize each foul in the order in which it occurs. So we would still shoot A1's FTs with no one on the line, then give the player from Team B 2 FTs for the intentional foul. Then Team B would get the ball for a throw-in at a spot closest to Team A's foul.

:D

It's actually, "Shut up, eh, ya hoser?"

Good day eh

http://images.usatoday.com/life/_pho...ctv-inside.jpg

You're on an SCTV kick tonight, huh? Never one of my faves. Don't know why. I know they're supposed to be. I liked Bob and Doug, but that's it. "Strange Brew" was just about my speed in high school. That tells you all you need to know about my pathetic personality. :)

You're on an SCTV kick tonight, huh? Never one of my faves. Don't know why. [/B][/QUOTE]I do.

http://www.gifs.net/animate/setupz.gif

Hope that helps.

Chuck -- It's just barely possible that you're not the one with the pathetic personality!

Hmmm... Is this FIBA being idiotic again? ;)

Well, imo the interps are correct. The definition of team control hasn't changed at all. A player is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds during a FT prior to the release. That equals player control and player control = team control, other than an airborne shooter.

The important thing is that you are sure today! :)

If I was doing this game by Fiba rules, there is no team control, as the ball is dead. Holding the ball for free throws does not constitute Team Control. The call on A2 would be unsportsmanlike foul with 2 shots to B2 and possession at halfway for team B. We carry on with the shots by A1 with no one lined up on the lane followed by the unsportsmanlike penalty on A2.

Nah, it's just FIBA being FIBA. :D

The ball is dead while the free thrower is holding the ball? When does the ball become live during a FT, then? When it's released for goal? Just curious.

Well whaddya know? I just looked this up and I was wrong (but so was Nick :))

According to the rule book:

10.2 The ball becomes live when:
• During the jump ball, the ball is legally tapped by a jumper.
• During a free throw, the ball is at the disposal of the free-throw shooter.
• During a throw-in, the ball is at the disposal of a player for the throw-in.

So FIBA agrees with NFHS. In this sitch the free-throws would not cancel each other out.

[Edited by Oz Referee on Nov 7th, 2005 at 04:08 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Team Control Foul
 

Hmm, so Chuck, surely this SHOULD be called an intentional foul? If so, why wouldn't refs call it this way?

OK, so other than personal fouls, what types of fouls do you guys have? We have three:

Technical fouls - for any non-contact infraction of the rules. Penalty is 2 free throws and possession at the halfway line. Two technical fouls on the one player (or coach) is an automatic ejection.

Unsportsmanlike fouls - used to be called Intentional Fouls, but the name was changed as it is impossible for an observer to know someone else's intent only the end result of their actions. So, unsportsmanlike fouls situations where there is no attempt ot play at the ball, or there is excessive contact in an attempt to play the ball.

Disqualifying fouls - for flagrant unsportsmanlike behaviour, including fighting, attempting to strike, leaving the bench in a fight, etc

What are the equivalent fouls in NFHS?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Team Control Foul
 

Same for NFHS, except that it is also a technical foul for dead ball contact, if intentional or flagrant.

That is almost exactly what we still call an intentional personal foul.

We call these flagrant fouls. They can be personal or technical.

With Fiba rules a few years back when the “play phase” was a rule, the ball was either:
1) dead
2) in play or
3) alive
Now the play phase is gone and so is the ball in play rule. The ball is now either dead or alive. When a player is having free shots, as soon as he/she is handed the ball, it becomes a ball alive situation, BUT there is no team control yet of either team until a rebound is secured by either team or the free throw is successful and the ball is then to be inbounded.

Nick, I completely agree - I was just disagreeing with your comment that the ball was dead. I initially thought the same, until I checked the rulebook.