We have a couple of coaches that teach their players to grab the offensive player's jersey to prevent them from getting open.
Last year, one team was doing it all game. I talked to the refs about it, but they couldn't catch them doing it (I know it can be hard to see - especially in the post where the players are so close together.)
I told my players to knock their defender's hands off, and my center got nailed with two flagrants for it.

What would be a legal way to get a defender who is grabbing the jersey off?

Welcome to the forum, Coach. Glad you found us here.

First off, Coach, it's very unlikely that your center got two flagrants. In HS and college ball, a flagrant foul carries automatic disqualification. In other words, you're kicked out of the game for any flagrant foul. That's just a minor point about technical terms, tho. I realize it's not the point of your question.

I can think of two legal ways to get the refs to notice the jersey being held. One, simply have your player yell, "He's holding my jersey!" It may get the official's attention. Be sure not to cry wolf, tho, or the official will just tune out your player's future complaints. Two, have your players pull away from the defender. This stretches out the jersey and gives the official a better chance of seeing the hold.

Those suggestions may or may not be helpful to you. Either way, good luck with your season.

Also, if the player who's holding lets go so he won't get caught, the problem is solved in a different way.

Sorry I guess it was an intentional foul, since it was away from the ball.
I just knew that they gave the other team FT's and possession!

Thanks for the advice - though my players aren't allowed to talk to the refs (they'd spend the whole game complaining if I let them!)

I think it's very acceptable for a player to talk quietly to a ref at a dead ball. "Ref, could you watch #32? He's holding my jersey." This is fine with me as long as there's no attitude or criticism in the tone of voice.

You're right, that would be fine. But MS kids go over the line quick.
My rule is if they have a problem, they tell me and I'll take it to the ref. I know what's actually important, and what's just the kids whining, and I also know how to approach a ref a little better then they do!

Yea, MS. I see your point. I didn't quite catch that in the first post. I agree that it's better for you to do the talking. Although, there might be a student here or there who could start learning this skill.

With MS you might have some continuing frustration.

Sounds like the refs MAY be doing a little "ball watching" and missing some of the "off ball" holding. Some of the "missing of the off ball" stuff is probably going to continue to occur. I'd continue to teach the kids, as you've done, to not complain and hustle through the holds; I'd mention the holds to the ref's at halftime or between quarters or when there's a lull in the action and I'd take a few moments every now and then to pray for continued patience.

Coach, this isn't the answer your looking for in order to resolve your problem, however, when you know you're about to face that team, you could have your players do some of that grabbing in practice. If you were to use a video tape, you can show your players how (as previously suggested) by pulling away it will stretch the jersey which becomes pretty obvious to the refs. Also, this will help teach your players to play thru that contact and to keep moving (be hard to guard). Though playing a team like that can be frustrating, it can also be a valuable game to help develop their skills. Besides the valuable talks you can have about the integrity of the game and sportsmanship.

Also, the angle of the "pull away" will help the ref see what is going on. If the ref is on the base line and B1 is behind A1, holding A1, if A1 moves toward the center of the court, the base line ref is less likely to see the hold. If A1 moves toward a sideline, the jersey grab will be more obvious. Have your players manuver to give the ref the best possible angle.

Know also we expect the players to play through minor inconveniences. Have them do their best to play their game and this should illuminate to us if they are really being impeded or not.

The last time I had a coach tell me this before the game, I ended up tossing 1 player and whacking two others.

Middle School or Multiple Sclerosis?

MAY be? What is the chance that middle school officials AREN'T ball watching?

This is old but I'll answer anyway.
Unsportsmanlike, right away. We've been given instructions to be hard with this, we do not want the things you see in soccer and hand ball (big sport here, you might not have heard of it :P). You don't even have to be preventing movment, just trying to prevent movment by grabbing the jersey is an unsportsmanlike foul.

This could be and is in my opinion an intentional foul. There is no ligitimate play for the ball and of course if its off the ball, its a no brainer.

This is an intentional foul since a player will not accidentally grab a fist full of jersey.

While I agree that it could be an intentional foul, I think you'd get get into a lot of trouble if you applied this metric (not accidental) to fouls. There are many fouls where players deliberately give a player driving to the basket a push on the hip when they're about to get beat or when a post player shoves the opponent when they get sealed off. Players deliberately stick a knee out on a screen in hopes that you will not see it and that it will slow down the defender. A grab of a jersey to slow down a player is no different than these.

The only time I'd consider it an intentional foul on a jersey grab is when the fouled player is absolutely on an otherwise uncontestable path to a certain score.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 9th, 2005 at 07:46 PM]

I agree that it certainly could be an intentional foul. The problem for the coach is not that officials are calling it incorrectly. The problem is that they're not seeing it at all so there's no call at all.

Tough spot for coach and players alike.

An intentional foul should be called. The calling official should not be scared or intimidated from not making this correct call and should have the courage to make this call and not based on ones own incorrect interpretation of the NFHS Rules.

Thank you Johnny! Understanding that this isn't something you want to have in the last two minutes, this is an intentional act. Just all the talk about an intentional being an intentional regardless of severity. I would be glad to entertain the thought of this not being an intentional, other than not "putting it into the game" at the end of a game.
In my experience, this is the sort of thing that can get an official hired.

I do not understand your quote.

All officials should make this call no matter when the intentional foul occurs, even during the last 2 minutes.

It's not about being scared or intimidated. It's a matter of the act matching the intentional foul rule or not. If you were to apply the intentional foul rule as you suggest, you'd have 10-20 intentional fouls per game. Just because they contact another player deliberately does not make it an intentional foul. There is more to it than that. Grabbing a jersey is not always a intentional foul. It depends on the context.

Fast break, 1v1, behind and getting beat, B1 grabs the jersey of A1...intentional foul every time.

Half court set, A1 dribbling out top. A2 cuts and has his jersey grabbed by B2 in the opposite corner. A2's cut was not such that it was an open path to the basket that would have put him wide open for an easy alley oop. There was no obvious advantageous position. B2 was just trying to keep A2 from getting the ball. Common foul.

Or maybe just a good old fashioned Illegal Use of the Hands or Holding from 10-6-1:

"The use of hands on an opponent **in any way** that inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent ... is not legal." Grabbing the jersey is to inhibit freedom of movement.

I like the intentional on the "stop the fast break pull the jersey from behind" situation.

If it is egregious you could go for an unsporting T per 10-3-7. There is a good argument that there is nothing about basketball that allows jersey grabbing, so by definition its occurence would be unsporting.

It would be egregiously wrong if you called jersey grabbing a "T". By rule- R4-19-5(b), you can't have a live ball technical foul that involves contact.

I agree. It would have to be egregious conduct. Dead ball. Something short of a fight. I dont know. I'm sure we could conjure up a situation where there could be a T.

But what I was trying to say is I think holding or intentional fouls take care of the situation. I believe a prior post suggested a T. That seems like the last resort to me.

[maybe i misread the post. i think it was crazy voyager. i thought his "unsporting" reference was to a T, but it doesnt look like his post actually says that.]

Look who showed up again just in time for the season! :)

BTW, I agree that grabbing the shirt is an intentional foul ANYTIME during the game ANYWHERE on the court.

Give him a break. He was busy with camps all summer. :)

By now he ought to be working about seven different conferences including the Big East and ACC. Anything less and I'd be disappointed. :)

[maybe i misread the post. i think it was crazy voyager. i thought his "unsporting" reference was to a T, but it doesnt look like his post actually says that.]

Remember, I'm a FIBA ref, you are probably confused by the rule refrences, you can PM me with more exact info and I'll sort it out for you ;)

[maybe i misread the post. i think it was crazy voyager. i thought his "unsporting" reference was to a T, but it doesnt look like his post actually says that.]

Remember, I'm a FIBA ref, you are probably confused by the rule refrences, you can PM me with more exact info about what you didn't get and I'll sort it out for you ;)

Do you also call an intentional foul when B1 grabs A1's arm, shoulder, etc. or when A1 is going up for a shot and B1 fouls then continues to hang on to ensure A1 can't complete the shot? If not, why? If you're calling an intentional on a jersey grab, you'll need to call all of these as intentional in order to be consistent. None of them are accidental. The result is the same. Why is the jersey more holy than any other part of the player?

The intentional fouls it not meant to be use just becasue it was not accidental. It is to stop a foul from neutralizing an obvious advantageous position or to stop a foul just to stop the clock.

Yes.

I don't think that the FED has changed their focus on intentional fouls one bit since they explained them in another POE in the 2000-01 rulebook. The points that the FED made then included- <i>verbatim</i>:

Acts that <b>must</b> be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing a player from behind.
- wrapping the arms around a player
- grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress.

The FED laid out in that POE exactly how they wanted intentional fouls called. They have issued nothing since then that would change those points.

I agree in the general sense but can imagine a jersey grab that is no more deserving of an intentional foul than the alternatives I've described. I was merely pointing out that the non-accidental nature of the foul is not relevant to the call and that there are cases of contact more deserving that never get call becasue they don't have a black/white edict tied to them.

I again ask (no to you but others who hold the jersey grab = intentional view), would a player grabbing/holding an opponents arm be an intentional. If not, why?

I dont know that it makes a difference, but...

To me, wrapping an arm up, though intentional, is just a foul. Grabbing jersey is "cheating." I know, I know, grabbing an arm is "not a basketball play" but some reason, maybe just in my own mind, grabbing jersey (a serious hold of the jersey, not a minor tug) just seems unsporting.

I still think in general an average grab of the jersey is a holding foul. A more egregious grab of the jersey could be an intentional.

I am not arguing what the rules ARE just how I percieve the nature of the offense on a scale from not so significant to more significant.

Camron, I probably call more intentional and technical fouls than any other referee in the state. I just don't care if anyone likes it or not. I'm not trying to win any popularity contests. My state doesn't give coaches any say at all in postseason selection, so I'm not losing any votes there.
I just follow one simply guideline.
If the actions of a player fit the text of the rule or what the POE from 2000-01 describes, I called an intentional.

It says right there in black and white that grabbing/holding the jersey must be deemed an intentional foul. So, I've called it that way for the past five years without fail. Whenever a coach has complained, I've simply told him that I always call jersey holding intentional. That is consistency, and they accept that.
From now on I will also be certain to enforce the following from the current season's POE on intentional fouls:
"A. Anytime in the game. Acts that neutralize an opponent’s obvious advantageous position and must be deemed intentional include:
• Excessive contact on any player attempting a shot
• Grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be scored
• Grabbing and holding a player from behind or away from the ball
These are “non-basketball” plays and must be considered intentional fouls anytime they occur during a game."

Of course, I already called most of this before.
The first one is an intentional foul even if the player is not attempting a shot, the committee just wants to make sure that we don't let the offender off easy because the opponent is already getting FTs for the try. If someone causes excessive contact, I'm punishing that.
The second point was stressed by the NCAA a season ago or so. It made sense to me. I've called it when I've seen it, and not had an issue over it once.
The third is also fairly obvious. It's intentional no matter if he grabs the head, neck, arm, leg, etc.

For some reason holding the jersey wasn't specifically repeated this year. Perhaps we are doing a good job already on that issue. I highly doubt that the NFHS wishes to reverse their earlier position on this, so I'll continue to call that intentional.

Just thinking out loud
 

If "basketball sense" is not applied to this situation, the "literal, book-smart" officials could "justify" calling an intentional foul on a players that "box out" an opponent by extenting their arms behind.

How so? The player doing the holding is not behind the opponent, nor are they considered away from the ball, since they are attempting to rebound it.