Can a team play a game with only four players even if others are available? What is the penalty if the coach doesn't put a 5th player on the floor? What is the penalty if only 4 players are on the floor when the ball is put in play?

sdubb,
Welcome to the forum.

In your situation, why has the coach refused to play with five?
mick

If he's got 5 available, he's gotta have 5 on the floor. Tell him to send in 5. When he refuses, that's failure to obey a request by the referee. Technical foul.

Actually, I think this falls under the forfeit rule in 5-4-1. If a team fails to play after being instructed to, the referee shall forfeit the game. I'd tell him, "Coach, if you're not going to put your team on the floor, then we're not playing." That should change his mind.

Reply to coach request
 

The coach said that his bench player had a bad attitude and he didn't want to play him. I wanted to honor his request but felt I had to enforce the rule. He said he would kick the player off his team the next day. I told him that was his business and I didn't need to know about it.

Re: Reply to coach request
 

sdubb,
I had a feeling that was the case.
I would, and have, allowed the coach to play with only four after discussing the situation [and getting approval] with the opposing coach and my partner.
Allowing a bad attitude on the floor is a safety problem which I choose to avoid.
mick

Re: Re: Reply to coach request
 

Could you say that the player is dq'd by the coach? Is there anything that says a coach can't dq a player? Or that a coach CAN dq a player?

Re: Reply to coach request
 

I would have done what you did sdubb. If the players attitude was bad enough to affect the game, our crew would have already dealt with it. What the coach wants to do tomorrow is his business, but both teams deserve to play 5-on-5 if possible (and by rule). Coaches aren't allowed to DQ their own players.

Z

Does he HAVE to have 5 out there? What about that once in a refs career when teams break from a TO and A had 5 players while only 4 players from B take the floor and the refs allow the ball to be inbounded? Now B realizes it and wants to send in another player. If they just run onto the floor it's a T so they have to wait for a dead ball to be beckoned in.

If coach wants to play with 4, I don't know of a rule that would prevent it unless he was up by 30 and he's trying to embarass the other team.

Case 3.1.1

Case Book Rule 3.1.1 makes it pretty clear that a team must play with 5 players if they have that many available. Bob Jenkins beat me by a minute... he must have his case books at his desk or one amazing memory.

Z

thanks

If that is the case, I believe the player needs to be off the bench. I can remember when I played JV, we were only allowed 5 quarters a night. In the fourth quarter, the coach would have us leave the bench so that if somebody fouled out we wouldn't be on the bench and therefore have ot enter the game.

Re: Re: Re: Reply to coach request
 

...Not that I know of, and apparently not that you know of, either.
Nor does it say that three good wheelbarrows and one broken wheelbarrow can be on the floor.
My guess is that all the possible situations are not covered.
mick

Could not a coach strike a name in the scorebook? It would cost him a T but now that number is not in the book.

All the coach has to tell me in this situation is "he's hurt."

Adding a number costs a "T", but deducting a number shows no penalty.
Why would anyone penalize an entire team because a coach wants to take care of bidness? :rolleyes:
mick

Anyone ever play 5 on 4? It's no fun for anyone. Boring for the team with 5 and frustrating for the team with 4. You're penalizing all 9 remaining kids if you let the teams play 5 on 4.... If the coach says the kid is hurt, then he can pull it off. Hopefully the coach is more honest than that and hopefully he can figure out how to discipline the one kid without ruining the fun for the rest of his team (and the other team).

Z

Z,
I am sure that makes sense to you.
mick

Now that it's become more clear as to why coach don't want him in there, I think it's pretty easy to fix. Send the kid to the locker room, or sit him on the row behind the bench. The "he's hurt" excuse works for me as well. If he's available, he's gotta be in there if he's the 5th man. But if he ain't on the bench, we go 5 on 4.

I prefer to deal with the truth, not "Fairy Tails".
If a coach wants his only available player to sit, I do not have to instruct/advise/encourage him to lie to me.

I get the same result of no "T", and no lie, by just saying, "Fine."
mick

While a coach may not DQ a player, I don't agree that a coach can't make one unavailable.

The (NF) rule reads, "...if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players..."

If a coach says a player is no longer available, he or she is no longer a "substitute(s) to replace" another player. A sustitute is not defined in rule 4, and there is no provision I'm aware of that requires someone listed on the scorebook to play or return to the game, even if they have already played.

NFHS case book play 3.1.1. If a player is "available", you gotta put him/her in.

YU.P.!
Coach made that kid unavailable.
That's what happened; sure as Yankee pitchers in an open dome.
mick

3.1.1 doesn't apply. It says, "In a gesture of fair play." In other words, the coach is taking the player out STRICTLY because of the fact that the other team only has 4 remaining. I have had that situtation in a game and agree the way the casebook says it is the way it should be handled.

The book does not suggest a different situation, one that is the topic of this discussion, and I stand by what I stated: a coach can make a player unavailable any time he or she wants. There's no restrictions on that. If you will recall, the player was unavailable BEFORE the foul (or event) that DQed the 5th player. Its just that you (as a game official) may not have been aware of it.

I KNOW what you are reading and what you are thinking, and agree there is a fine line here. At best, this is one of those situations not SPECIFICALLY covered by the rules, so there is some discretion. The intent of the rule is to keep 5 players out on the court, even in situations where one team only has 4 or fewer available. The intent is not violated when a coach says a player is unavailable due to the fact that he or she will no longer play on that team (or even for that game).

Yeah, I was just responding to the point made that there was <b>no</b> provision in the rules to make a substitute or an eligible player on the bench go into the game. There is.

The question of whether a substitute is "available" or not is a whole 'nother matter though. Personally, I'd probably handle this type of situation exactly the way you are suggesting.

Only Gene Hackman can get away with it in "Hoosiers."

Not really.
Coach made him *unavailable*.
Ref said , "Okay!"
Just like I and coach did last year. ;)
mick

But, what makes a player "available"? Who makes that determination? If I look at a player on the bench, and I think they look available, should I order them in the game, even though they're not eligible to play? For example, in grade school games in IL, the IESA (IL Elementary School Assoc.) has a limit on the total number of quarters a player can play in day (I believe it's 6 or 7). Usually they play two games, the 5th/6th grade game, then the 7th/8th grade game. Officials have no jurisdiction over who plays how many quarters; it's an issue between the schools and the IESA. But if a school plays their best player more quarters than allowed, that school could forfeit as a result. So, if a coach says a player is not available, even though, according to NFHS rules they are available (less than 5 fouls, not injured, etc.) should I order them into the game and force a forfeit for that school later on?

If a coach tells me the player is not available, who am I to argue?

Oh.

I......guess.....I.....type.........slow.........

Never mind.

Oh, my !
 

M&M,
Not a good example.
With all that *thinking* and *believing*, I can tell you don't work those levels, or else you would know those limitations of play. :cool:
mick
<HR>
"Baaaad sample!" - Charles Rogers

Re: Oh, my !
 

Well, actually, I worked one last year early in the season. :cool: (Ok, although it hasn't been often.) But, the reason I included that example is because the officials do not have any jurisdiction over those rules. We don't need to know what the number of quarters a player is allowed to play. Even if we did, we can't tell a player to play or not play based on those rules. It is an issue only between the schools and the IESA. If there is a player eligibility issue, a school can file an appeal, but the game officials cannot make any determinations, and there are no game penalties prescribed. The IESA told us to use the NFHS rules during games. So, I guess my point is if I see a player on the bench, and that player is "available" in the context of that game, I could be forcing a forfeit if I send that player out, even though the coach doesn't want to play him/her.

Let me throw in a wrinkle...
 

The issue I think is that is this player now not available for the REMAINDER of the game?

I saw a sitch once where the coach pulled his player for being disrespectful etc... and then when he had a chance to win the game, put him back in! I believe if the coach makes him unavailable once (i.e., sends out 4), then he has made him unavailable for the rest of the game. Unless, of course there is an injury...But even then we are on shaky ground...Can the injured player return?

Joe

Re: Let me throw in a wrinkle...
 

Joe,
It depends on the injury [eg.,losing consiousness] as to whether the kid can return, or not.
If the fifth, and only available player is bleeding, she leaves, she gets a bandaid and goes back in.
mick

As a coach (which I am sometimes) it is easy to get around this - "Sorry Ref, this player is injured, I can't let him back on to the court"

Anyone here going to argue with this and order an "injured" player onto the court?

You may find it boring but in the 1963-64 season I witnessed second most amazing comeback in a H.S. baseketball game I have ever season. The Visitor's were undefeated (and favored to win the league championship) and the Home team had been picked to finish second in the league. With just under three minutes to play, a player from Team V fouled out. Team V had no eligible players on the bench. Coach V (an OhioHSAA registered basketball coach) wanted to pull a jr. varsity player out of the stands and add him to the roster at the expense of a technical foul (and we all know that a team could do this even during the 1963-64 season), but the officials would not let him do it. At the time Team V was losing by four points. Play resumed and with still over two minutes to play another Team V player fouled out. Team V was now down to three players and was still losing by four points. From that point on Team V outscored Team H by six points to zero to win the game by four points. I was in the seventh grade at the time and the Team V coach was my next door neighbor. I would play varsity basketball for him and my sister and I would both play varsity golf for him. He was also a charter member of the Trumbull Co. Bkb. Off. Assn. (he was a member of the TCBOA when the game was played and both officials were also members of the TCBOA) and at 01:00am in the morning after the game the R in the game called him at home to tell him that he and his partner had made a mistake in not letting him add a player to the roster at the expense of of a technical foul.

I became a member of the TCBOA when I started officiating and still am a member.

It was an exciting game to say the least.

MTD, Sr.

Still using middle school math? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're down by four and then outscore the other team 6-0, you would only win by 2. Something I'm missing here? :D

Mark forgot to add that he was in the seventh grade for the fourth time. :D

Whadyu know about modern math?

Well, I know if you're down 4 and you score 6, you're gonna win by 3.

:)
Yabut that's you an' me.
What about the real world?
mick

Clearly Mark was using metric maths - that's why I didn't spot the mistake :)