I just got back from our state rule meeting. There is an interesting way to handle a coaching box infraction. Our state decided that we would have a "warning" for the first time we see a coach out of the coaching box. Then the next infraction of the coaching box would be a technical foul. Now this "warning" would not apply if a coach is berating an official. The warning would apply if the coach is wandering outside of the box. This was described as a "sideline warning" as used in football. I thought this was very interesting way to handle the coaching box. Now this was not something I just heard talked about, it was in the IHSA PowerPoint Presentation.

What do you guys think about this way to handle coaching box issues?

Peace

That's part of the FED's POE's this season. They outline the same procedure. It's good in theory, but I'm curious to see if it works out that well in practice.

Here's a different spin.

Our local booking agent is tired of coaches calling and saying they weren't warned before they got a T. So, we're now going to have the scorer record a formal warning in the score book when we give the stop sign and tell the coach, "I've heard enough." We will also inform the opposing bench and our partners, so that a coach doesn't get multiple warnings.

:)

Where did you find that? I do not see anything that suggest given an official warning (put in the scorebook) for a coaching box infraction. Either I missed something or I cannot find the reference for this application of the rule.

Peace

Chuck, there's no mention of a "warning" anywhere in the POE.

The POE sez "Head coaches have the responsibility to remain in the box. School administrators must support that by demanding they do so(giggle-added by me :rolleyes: ). When violated , the official <b>must</b> enforce the rule with a technical foul."

Why inform the opposing bench?!?

I found it interesting too. The interesting thing is that they stated very clearly that if you don't address the problem, you probably won't get a post-season assignment.

The IHSA said a similar thing to football officials about enforcing sideline conduct with sideline warnings. They have made it clear to enforce these rules rather strictly or potential for the playoffs might be effected.

Peace

Your initial post didn't say anything about the warning being recorded in the scorebook, so I didn't realize that's what you meant. But here's the FED's POE on the coaching box.
I added the emphasis (and left out the last half of the POE), but it sure sounds the same as what you described in your initial post. If you meant that Illinois is going to add a written warning to the scorebook, then that's a different kettle of fish.

So that the opposing coach knows why the game was stopped. As long as there's no movement to the basket, we're supposed to stop the clock and have the warning recorded immediately.

Chuck, I just double-checked this year's rule book POE's. I also went to the NFHS web site and checked out the POE's that are issued on there. There is <b>NO</b> language anywhere that I can see that is even faintly similar to what you typed above. There is <b>NO</b> mention in the rule book or on the FED website saying that we should issue a warning of any kind.

Whereinheck <b>are</b> you reading <b>your</b> language? :confused:

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 18th, 2005 at 09:15 AM]

Sigh.

This was given to board interpreters at our state meeting. It has all the rule changes, major editorial changes, and looks for all the world as if it were pulled straight out of the rulebook.

It must be the MIAA's points of emphasis. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm so used to getting the FED proclamations from all of you guys. I guess I need to start assuming that whatever I get from the state is NOT associated with the FED. Again, sorry for causing confusion.

On the plus side, we seem to be pretty much in line with Illinois!

This is the information that we were given. It is just supposed to be recorded in the book. I did not read this "warning" anywhere else. I thought it was understood when I stated the "warning" to be put in the book somewhere, but I guess that was not very clear.

Either way it goes, we got the same information. I did not read this anywhere else but what I read or heard at this IHSA Rules Meeting.

Peace

Thanks for clearing that up.

Btw, the MIAA POE is completely different from the FED's in one particular way. The FED's POE went to great lengths to stress that there was no difference in whether the coach was "coaching" or yapping when he was out of the box. If s/he was out of the box for any reason, they wanted a T called.

Sample excerpts from the FED POE:
1)"It is a distinct advantage to the coach who is permitted to be out of the box because the coach has a better chance to communicate with his/her team".
2)"The fact that the coach is not directing comments to the officials or is 'coaching the team' has no bearing on rule enforcement".
3) "When violated, the officials MUST enforce the rule with a technical foul".

Having said that, I gotta tell you that we've already told our officials to follow basically the same procedure as the IHSA and MIAA have recommended--i.e a T if they're yapping and a warning first if they're just wandering. There's a l'il bit more common sense attached to that imo rather than issuing a T without a warning to a coach who might have innocently stepped outside their box.

I know our state was contemplating taking away the coaching box all together. This I guess was a compromise to keep the box and handle those that violate the rule without yelling at the officials.

Peace

Here's my take. First of all, I have talked to coaches on many occasions about staying in the box (here in Iowa, it's not a factor in boys as they have to stay seated). I think the formal warning gets away from the fact that the NFHS has this as a POE. If it is a POE they obviously want it enforced. I don't think giving coaches more rope with which to hang themselves is going to help the problem. I think it would be better if officials called the T whenever called for early in the season and the coaches will get the message. As they say, give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

If a T solved the problem, then this would not be a POE. It is obvious something needs to be done and maybe this will give officials the support to keep coaches in the box. The problem with calling this a technical foul all the time, the coaches would use the excuse they were not doing anything wrong. The warning will give coaches one free chance to correct the situations (it works in football btw) without affecting the game or giving the perception it will affect the game. The warning will be public and if not complied with, then the coach only has himself/herself to blame when their team gets penalized for their actions.

Peace

HMM, this coaching box thing sounds familiar to me. Where did I here this issue before? I know ME! Just a Rookie, I have not gotten game management piece yet. Is this not part of game management? Inquiring minds wants to know. I remember I brought the subject up about coaches being up in the box while the clock is running. Coaches up while clock is running they will wonder thus, everything else will happen i.e warning being issued; technicals being assessed.

Rut,
I don't disagree with what you're saying at all (playing a little devil's advocate here), but if there isn't a warning in the rules book, why should there be a warning (I know the board has had many discussions like this)? If the coaching box were enforced by everyone as it is written, there shouldn't be any excuse for the coach breaking the rule and the warning needing to be issued.

Rook, go to whomever <b>you</b> report to----> assignor/evaluator/trainer/rules interpreter/head honcho,etc. Ask them how they want you to call the coaching box. Then watch the experienced officials in your area and see how they are actually calling it. Iow, don't be "that guy".

Any advice that you receive from this forum on some subjects may not be necessarily applicable or relevant to your particular area.

If you have ever read anything I say on this board, I completely believe in the philosophy of states and organizations doing whatever they want to handle situations. I personally do not care what the rulebook says on this issue, the coaching box is an "optional" thing in the first place. If a state wants to have the box and help keep the usage of this rule, I feel any state has the right to decide how to enforce it based on a philosophy. Now the IHSA also told us that if this rule is not enforced properly, we might not get playoff games or our playoff standing would be affected. This is what they came up with (maybe not on their own) to handle this situation. Whether I agree or not is not my issue. I just thought it was an interesting way to handle the enforcement of the rule. Also I have seen how in football we were instructed to handle sidelines and we were told to use sideline warnings for all kinds of conduct issues. It is amazing how a sideline warning in football changes the attitude of the coaches.

Peace

LIke I said, I don't disagree with the method of handling coaches. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it and if it makes a difference on how the coaching box is enforced. Is this a written adaptation then or something just discussed at meetings? As an official, I think I'd want it in writing so that the coaches know it's coming.

Speaking of football and sideline warnings...
did ya see the SJ on Monday Night Football (Rams vs. Colts) trip over, what looked like a players legs, as he was running down the sideline?

The replay showed the official tripping over the "sideline player's legs" and landing on his behind. The official then reached for his flag, while on the ground, and threw it.

The white hat said they couldn't be sure if it was a player or a "ballboy"...so they picked up the flag.

Hmmmmm, I'll bet my last Fox 40 that someone on this board has tripped over a Coach, cheerleader, mascot, etc. that was standing on or partially on the Basketball court.

Stories?

It was in the PowerPoint Presentation that is enough for me. Coaches never attend these meetings anyway, I am sure some coach will have never heard of a team control foul the first couple games. All I know is they told us this is how they want it called or our playoff assignments might be affected. So that is enough for me. ;)

Peace

JRut,

Thanks for that heads up. I haven't gone to the Rules mtg yet (Ignatius next Monday), but I have heard that this was going to be brought up. The CPS games are going to be hilarious this season with the enforcement of this rule affecting playoff standing!! Some coaches won't know what hit 'em.

IMO, this will be something that should be addressed in the pregame. I like to keep it brief, so just a reminder to the coaches to 'be mindful of the coaching box' should suffice.

[Edited by SeanFitzRef on Oct 18th, 2005 at 02:05 PM]

Then watch the experienced officials in your area and see how they are actually calling it. Iow, don't be "that guy".

JR, I have been watching the experienced officials in my area and it is like kids at recess. Coaches wondering; at half-court (not substituting); on the base-line; two steps on the court. The coaches are all over the place. I have gone so far to ask a few why they do not enforce the box. Reply: If they are not on my back I do not care. The preception to me is they are limiting their responibilities to the action within the boundary lines. This is frustrating because a Rookie is applying the rule where others do not bother. Thus becoming "that guy". I have to admit until the state start coming down hard on these (minor oversights)of the rules it will not change.

All replies are good and the forum is relevant to development.

What are these coaches wondering about? When I was a kid, I was too busy playing during recess to stand around and wonder about stuff.

<b>Don't be "that guy"!!!</b>

Rook, there are battles to be fought--- but this ain't one of them. From a political standpoint, you could severely retard your advancement curve in your area if you stray away from the way other officials are handling the box in practice.

Consider:
1) Everyone- players, coaches, officials- wants a uniform application of the rules. Coaches need to know what they can or cannot do. If the rest of your compadres are letting 'em roam as long as they aren't yapping, and you T them up for doing the exact same thing, it's pretty much guaranteed that you're gonna get a lot of practice in your game management skills. Read- major, big time arguments. :)
2) The officials aren't really limiting their "responsibilities to the action within the boundary line". It is more likely that they have made a collective decision as to what actions they <b>will</b> allow <b>outside</b> the boundary lines. They aren't really shirking their responsibilities- they are defining those responsibilities internally. That might be opposite to what the FED has put out in their POE, but it certainly won't be the first time that officials' groups have decided not to follow a POE to the letter. Iow, it ain't necessarily a "bad" thing.

Don't let these things get to you. In some areas, you just have to go with the flow. Relax and chill.

I think that the idea of a "documented" warning is a good idea. Treat it much like a delay of game warning, one for each team before incurring the penalty. It puts the responsibility on the coaches to be more aware of their location.

So now I will put it to you this way....
You are working the big game of the year (NCAA Final, State Final, Adult league final, 5th grade final), both coaches have been warned about being out of the coaching box, it is a one point game in the fourth quarter. A big call (with the 'and 1') goes against one of the teams and the coach (not going crazy) is just standing outside the edge of the box more out of disbelief. Are you going to call this? How about in a blowout?

My point is not the call, but rather, that the only thing that has changed is that the coaches are now getting a formal warning which can readily be traced in the event of a dispute. This will certainly take away the "I didn't even get a warning" defense. BTW, that defense is one of my favorites.

[Edited by icallfouls on Oct 18th, 2005 at 04:34 PM]

Don't get to frustrated rook...there are plenty of other things, that actually happen on the court, that you will get to deal with.

As you know, JR is a pretty wise ol' dude, if he says do what the experienced officials do...you might want to take heed. If there is a battle to be fought over this type of "stuff", let the leaders fight it and you just follow for awhile...maybe someday you'll be leading the charge. ;)


I have been watching the experienced officials in my area and it is like kids at recess. Coaches wondering; at half-court (not substituting); on the base-line; two steps on the court. The coaches are all over the place.

Not to be picking on you to much rook...but, it sounds like you are watching the coaches more than the experienced officials.
Check out the veteran's mechanics, court presence, calls, transitions, attitudes, etc...steal what you like, and disregard what doesn't fit your personality or style.

Rook, you're doing the right things now, IMO, because you're asking questions...keep it up.

Edit: Sheesh, JR, I guess I'm a slow typer...by the time I finished my opinion...it looks like you gave similar advice. :)

[Edited by RookieDude on Oct 18th, 2005 at 04:42 PM]

Check out the veteran's mechanics, court presence, calls, transitions, attitudes, etc...steal what you like, and disregard what doesn't fit your personality or style.


[/B][/QUOTE]That's excellent advice for any new official.

And I responded to your post before I read your edit.

Premature ejaculation? :eek:

:D

I recently went to our state rules meeting here in VA, and we received the same directive from the top as well. This was the first time they had specifically told us to give a warning to coaches outside the box. We were told to do it for coaches outside the box who are coaching, not berating officials.

It resulted in the same reaction from officials that I have read thus far on this board. My guess is that the enforcement of the box will still continue to be pretty inconsistent from association to association. In VA, the coaches are at the same meeting, so at least they can't claim they didn't know about it!

Anyone think this will be a problem? Do you actually think coaches will comply?

I think a better question is do you think officials will comply.

If there's no uniformity in applying the directive, fuggedaboutit. If we call it uniformly, the coaches will adjust real quick imo.

If the officials do not comply, they might not be working playoffs. I also do not think it matters if every officials complies with the rules either. Coaches should know the rules and comply regardless of who is officiating the game. It will be the coaches that get hurt when they run into an official that will enforce the rule. This is no different than what happens in football as it relates to sideline warnings. It does not matter what happen the week before, when coaches run into officials that will strictly enforce the rule; they will either comply or suffer the consequences.

Peace

If you start managing the coaching box from the get-go (including mentioning it in the coaches pregame conference) it shouldn't be a problem. Coaches have been abusing the box because officials have let them (the old "if they aren't screaming at me, I don't care where they are" philosophy). You'll be suprised at how much better they behave when they know they are being watched rather than ignored. If you're keeping an eye on the box, you'll notice them when they start to push the boundaries of the box rather than ignoring them and then noticing them when they are 8-feet out.

Z

That's what I'm doing, including it in my pre-game.

I will do the same. I just also will not worry about what other officials do. I know what I will do and I will talk about it with my partners before every game as well.

I work too many places to worry about what other officials call or do not call. When I go to different parts of the area or in the state, officials do not do the same things I do all the time. That might be the reason I have achieved some things that others do not.

Peace

JRut...
 

I was under the impression the Mercy Rule was out and I had heard they were dead red on getting rid of it at the Class A State Tournament. Any thoughts on keeping it?

Re: JRut...
 

The mercy rule is only used for tournament games before February 1, 2006. They just went back to what the rule was in 2004-2005. The coaches hated this rule for all games last year because they felt games were not called consistently by the officials either to get the game to the mercy rule or calling all kinds of fouls to allow the clock to run after the mercy rule was in affect.

I am not sure what you are talking about as it relates to the Class A State Tournament. Last year the mercy rule was used at all games except any State Tournament games. There was nothing special about the Class A Tournament as it related to this rule.

Peace

I heard at the State Tourney they were getting rid of it completely.

I was never used in the state tournament. Or at least it was not supposed to be used in the state tournament. It was never used in the state tournament. If the mercy rule was used in the state tournament it was used incorrectly.

Peace

No No No :)

What I was saying was: while I was at [attending] the State tourney, I heard they were getting rid of it completely, not that they were using it.

My guess is they want these tournaments during holidays that feature JV squads to be painless, thus keeping it for tournaments.

I am sorry, I misunderstood you then. I heard similar things near the end of the season about this rule. As I said coaches did not like the rule because a lot of their players would not get a chance to play other than the starters and main bench players. For tournaments the rule is really only there to keep the tournament moving with multiple games being played in one day. It is also an option for the tournament directors. The schools involved do not have any say in whether this rule is used or not.

Peace

Mercy Rule
 

Was at the Rules Interp at Stevenson last night (Stevenson's Boys Varsity Coach was there too). Anyway, the rationale for keeping it for the early season tourneys was just to keep the games on schedule.

We were also told that if the Coaches' Box is not marked on the floor, it didn't exist. If they want to use tape to mark it, that's fine, but if it isn't there the coaches get to sit. We were also told not to mark it ourselves "if we don't have time". If we're there 15 minutes before game time, go ahead and help out, but don't go to the captains meeting and then hurry to mark the floor. Just tell them that without markings, no box. If they hurry up and get it done before game time, that's cool.

Small Schools
 

Suggestions on the coaching box in cracker box gyms?

Re: Small Schools
 

None were made last night. I'd give some leeway, assuming that's how everyone in the are is calling it.