Did a game tonight where the coach approached me just before we're about to resume after halftime.

Background: I had three block-charge calls in a row in the first half, where his players stepped in late on the opponents' drives to the hoop. All right in front of me, none of them borderline - all clearcut blocks. After the second one, he asked me "what do we have to do to get a charge?" and I replied calmly "they have to be there first" You can guess how satisfied he was with that.

So anyway, he says to me and my partner at halftime, in a fairly assertive voice, that he thinks that I was making a conscious effort to not give him that call. I paused, and then asked him "are you questioning my integrity?" - he gives me a "well...", and I continue "because I need to know what to write on the game report about why I T'd you". He backed off and went to his bench.

T or not?

No. You made your point. He back off. You won. :)

Evaluators have commented in the past that maybe I have TOO thick a skin sometimes, so in this case I wondered what might have happened had I not cut off his answer to my integrity question...

Afterwards, I say to my partner "he just used up his slack", and my partner replies "all of it".

He was fine for the rest of the game - even after two more block calls :p

Had a similar situation a few years ago, in which the coach used just about the same words. I came back with, "Visa or Mastercard are accepted, but not American Express."

He actually laughed.

I agree with Tony. No need to T here, as he backed off. However, if the conversation had been during the game, in front of the fans, etc and could've been overheard, I might have a different answer. Maybe.

I disagree, a T is warrant, The coach behavior is unacceptable. I understand clearly why coachs behave the way they do. Officials, let them get away with it. Anytime, a coach or player is questioning an official integrity a T is what they should receive. Let them explain to their administrators why they receive a technical during the game. Questioning one's integrity is not an option.

Would you take it from a player questioning your integrity?

But he wasn't really questioning the official's integrity. He's just frustrated and doesn't really know who to blame, so it's easy to blame the ref. But when the official asked him point-blank if he calling the official's integrity into question, the coach immediately realized that's not what he really wanted to do and backed off.

Give everybody a second to cool off. If you stick him right away, you're just giving him more "proof" that you're out to get him. If you give him a chance to cool down and then he still presses the issue, then he's just hanging himself.

P.S. -- you're using commas incorrectly.

I have to agree with most of the posts, you won the debate. The coach got the message and will probably leave you alone. You did the same thing I would do, ask him a question about his comment and move on.

Peace

If you think this is questioning an official's integrity, then you've got a lot to learn, grasshopper.

If he had said, "Why is it always charging when we drive the lane and blocking when they drive the lane? Call it both ways!" Now that's questioning your integrity. Even then, he would probably just get a stop sign from me, along with a "That's enough, coach," unless he had been previously warned.

As you mature rook, you won't be as fast to pull the trigger. Trust me, we were all young and full of piss and vinegar at one time. You'll grow out of it.

Ah, the exuberance of youth.

Actually, I felt good about my decision, I just wanted to bat it around with these yahoos :D a bit, because I haven't been around that much - NHL's back, you know (NOTE TO RUT: shut up ;) )

What is the NHL back from?

Peace

I said shut up.

You know I could not resist.

Peace

Shouldn't you be watching the ChiSox or Arena football or something? :p

Rook, I wish it was but it just ain't that simple or easy. Every situation is different, and you do what you think will work best for that particular situation. What Canucklehead did worked out well for him in that particular game. Ergo-- it was the right way to handle it. End of story.

Sometimes you do haveta T someone up. Sometimes there are much better options. Don't lock yourself into any one specific course of action <b>before</b> these types of situations occur. Just deal with them with what happens to feel right at the time for that particular situation.

Canuck, I'm pretty new and I have a feeling I may have the "too-thicked-skin" problem also. But, I think I'm learning...a little.

I'm interested in thoughts on this T situation I had in an adult rec-league. Here's what happened and how I handled it. Sound good, bad, or in the middle? If it's HS or college, does it make a difference on how to handle it?

I'm the Lead when A1 drives, misses, thinks he got fouled...B1 gets rebound and is going the other way, with just about everyone else except A1. A1 says, "What the f___ are you looking at?" I respond with, "Just a second..." as I watch if B1 is turning the rebound into a fastbreak or slowing it down. As I see B1 slow down I say...tweet..."Technical Foul on A1." Team A has only five players and A1 has some kind of response like, "whatever" or something fairly harmless. But a responose none-the-less. I finish with, "Hey, you can finish with four if you want to. I really don't care." A1 walks away and we play from there.

I understand what everyone is saying(I will grow).:D I agree that every situation is different. The feedback I receive from the posts I make is helping me become a better official(I actually pay attention in class).:DThe situation others have encountered I learn from too. Stick around the maturation process is taking effect.

If he said that to me, they would be playing with 4.

If he said it in a high school game in my state, I would be expected to eject him and he would sit out the next two games.

NU1, why wait to assess the T? Hit your whistle and do it when it happens. Also, check the rules for your league. A lot of leagues would call this kind of language flagrant. You did the right thing in calling the T, but in my opinion, you should have gotten it when it occured.

So, what were you looking at?

Now playing point guard.....Travis Bickle.

I was looking at the play - just didn't see a foul :)

I waited to blow the whistle because his "what the..." question came as the ball was going the other way. I didn't want to take the fast break away from the non-offending team.

As far as tossing the guy...that's where I'm saying I'm still learning. I definitely understand the thought of doing that right away in HS. College same thing? But, in this rec-league I didn't. Not saying I shouldn't have, but I didn't.

Thanks for the responses.

I understand why you didn't want to penalize the non-offending team, but you're opening yourself up for more problems with the guy you whacked if he or his team notices the time lapse between the comment and the T.

Did he yell it at you or was it sort of mumbled in your direction?

It wasn't yelled or mumbled. Everyone went the other way - except him - and it was face to face, clearly spoken. Kind of matter-of-fact like.

This is one of the reasons I got out of officiating Men's Adult Rec League. I was becoming as much of a jerk as they were.
For example, if a grown Man had said that to me...I would have responded with somehting like, "Your stupid A$$ trying to make a lay-up"!...then I would have whacked him and told him to shut the He11 up or go home and watch cartoons.

When I broke in as a Rookie about 17 years ago...rec ball had it's place. I watched as some top H.S. officials, at the time, really did become mean-spirited toward Men's rec ball players. I vowed not to become like that...but, I found myself doing some of the exact same things the other guys were doing.
Therfore, time to get out...it wasn't fun anymore and I was acting unprofessional.
I still love H.S. ball and will continue doing it untill it isn't fun anymore.

Should have T'ed him up right away, not waited.

Rec league I probably would have DQ'ed him. For sure if he had been ay more animated than you say he was.

No question T him in HS. Not so sure I would have DQ'ed him though.

Any level above HS there's a good chance I would have not heard him if he & I were the only 2 back there, more than likely I would have left him there to follow the break. But he & I would have had a good heart-to-heart later on.

Wrong answer. He waited to see if Team B was going to push the ball for a fast break. To whistle the T in the middle of B's drive to the basket is a disadvantage to Team B. The Case Book instructs us to wait in this situation. He did the right thing by waiting.

Know what? I disagree. Simply because of the way I see this play unfolding.

The way I read this is that the comment was not made "in the middle of B's drive", it was made as B grabbed the rebound. If B had already pushed the ball up to midcourt or further then fine, give them a few seconds. But then what the heck was Nu1 still doing back there anyway if the ball was upcourt? Maybe there was a nifty outlet pass to get the ball upcourt, but I didn't read that in there.

The way I see this sitch hit the whistle right away.

Dan --

Here are the relevant sentences.

Somewhat ambiguous, but it's at least possible that the fast break might have already been underway. On the other hand, he says that B1 has the rebound, and that B1 might be turning it into a fast break. Same player? Hmmm...

I read this one the same as Dan. It sounded like the possible break was just starting, we don't know if a team was in the middle of driving the lane. We either need more explanation or it might be one of those "had to be there" plays.

One reason I have started stepping away from "Men's League" games is the conduct. The "Men" act like 2-yr-olds, whining about every call as if the NBA title were on the line. And I hate to belittle and demean all 2-yr-olds by lumping them in with these buffoons!

Last two "Men's" games I did, I gave out 7 T's, and I knew it was time to leave it alone. Four for fighting (because they didn't want to get touched), two for language towards my partner and I, and one to clean up after my partner hit the clown with a T.

Sad part about it was that these guys scream about how inept the officials are, but as I had to remind him, "I don't see you cashing any NBA checks either!"

My theory on adult leagues (which I worked 2 days, and will never, ever work again) is that they 1)think they're still the players they were in college or HS, 2) are used to playing pick up ball often with hybrid, misunderstood rules and have trouble understanding how the game is actually called, 3)have no understanding of advantage/disadvantage, and 4) learn their rules from t.v. and radio announcers.

:eek:
TV/Radio guys learn rules???? Rec league players learn???? Is this an April Fools' joke??

:eek:

In an attempt to add a little clarity, here goes...

The play was not an all-alone lay-up that rolled off the rim and was rebounded right under the basket. It was more of a drive into traffic...and more of a floating / running type shot than a lay-up. I'd say a couple feet inside the foul line.

B1 rebounds the shot at around the foul line or just below, turns, takes a couple dribbles and is near (but not across) the division line. So, yes, it is B1 who rebounds and it is B1 who initiates the break.

It seemed like A1 took a second or two to look at me in disgust before he said, "What the..." Again, it was not yelled, but it was clearly said. I think I was still down around the foul line (of A's basket) due to the fact that A1 shocked me with his comment...I knew he was getting a T and the action would be stopped in a moment, so I was just waiting to see if the break developed...and maybe a little of less-than %100 hustle :) ...maybe.

IMO, the break (or at least the possibility of it) had clearly started. That's why I waited. Right or wrong, I am comfortable with that part of my action.

What I'm not as sure of is, with this type of situation, is it just T once...T once and also T the second time (continued complaining)...T once but toss out? And then, how you would treat rec ball v. high school v. college.

Sorry for the confusion on the original post. I hope this helps.

Now, I used to think like truerookie, I used to be T-happy, but I've realized this, we're not out there for ourselves, latitude must be given to coaches, let them vent a bit, don't let it get out of hand, doing so will help strengthen relationships between players, coaches and us, the officials. This way we don't look like asses and we have a good time. This really doesn't sound like me, but in a situation like the one mentioned, there is a possible way to avoid the T, and it should be used, unless he's making it personal, or others can here, just talk to him quietly and talk him out of any technical foul he might get into.

Feel free to disagree. But take another look at his post. My guess his description is drawing a different mental picture for you versus what I see. I'm betting we would probably react similiarly in the same situation.


I have no problem with the way this was handled and would have handled it the same way myself, given his explanation.
Good job! That's exactly what you should have done!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 17th, 2005 at 04:26 PM]

The Original Whackinator is dead?

Our Whackinator has turned warm and fuzzy and friendly?

Our Whackinator is now a cuddly l'il ol' teddybear?

http://d21c.com/AnnesPlace/Bears/PoohRef.gif

Say it ain't so! :eek:

My old attitude didn't seem to get me anywhere, I started officiating in a new association this fall, and don't want to be known as the whackenator here. I think that will help my chances of advancement.

Teen-agers DO grow up!? That's my good news for the week, then!! Ref 18, you've restored my faith in humanity.

Back to the post that started this thread for a moment:

When the coach says, "What do we need to do to get a charge," try the relpy, "What do you mean, coach?" Resist the temptation to answer his question outright. It is obvious that he is frustrated, but his question tells you little more than that. By asking him what he means, he will say something like, "my players are stationary," or "my players are getting there in time," or "you guys are screwing me." Respond accordingly.

Asking a coach what he or she means by a comment can do a number of things for you, 1) You really do find out what the coach actually means. Now you can respond accordingly and hopefully prevent the coach from getting more agitated. 2) It shows the coach that you are listening AND paying attention. 3) If you do have to whack the coach, it will be because of what the coach said to you in response to a simple question. That makes your whack much easier to justify on the incident report after the game.
4) Sometimes, it takes so much time for the coach to respond that the play has continued on, and you can move on.

This was something that I heard retired NBA referee Nolan Fine talk about. I started to use it, especially on my favorite coach's comment/question-- "How come they have 1 foul, and we have 6?" and it has worked very well.

Well said.

Mregor

With adult leagues you only have 2 choices;
1. Give them the T's they so richly deserve.
2. Don't work adult leagues.

While I can appreciate this, I wouldn't blanket that statement to all situations. In my case, asking "what do you mean" would likely only have escalated things into a confrontation. Let's face it, there was nothing fuzzy or confusing about his question ("what do we have to do go get a charge"). "What do you mean" could easily be interpreted as a smart-a** response or refusing to answer him. His original question, though elevated in tone and frustration, was valid - and not one that deserved or needed deflecting. He asked, I answered. He wasn't satisfied, but I wasn't expecting him to be, either. I got away from him with a quick rotation, anyway. It was his halftime actions I was more concerned with. And things there turned out okay.

I find that as I do more high-level games, I am paying way more attention to what I say, and don't rely as much on those lovely one-liners and questioning tactics anymore. They have their place, but these coaches are also a lot harder to manipulate.

Just for those who don't know or haven't seen it before, the withheld whistle on the T case book play is 10.4.1 Situation E.