Anyone got the test yet this year to share with us all?

Word of warning W&S: That's a button you're going to wish you hadn't pushed.

Why? My state's just slow in sending it out, and also, "i just wanna check my answers."

hahaha, check answers
 

well then if that is all you want to do is check your answers, then someone will post them in about a month or two, for part 1 and then another month or two for part 2, then you can check them and see how you did!!!! Touchy subject around here, everyone doesn't use the test for practice, it has state tournament game influences in some states!!!! good luck

OK, well, if anyone has it, email me through the board.

I have never understood why this had been such a big deal each year. If your motives are not good, you will still find a way to get the answers. If you have the answers and someone else wants them to aid in their rules study, why not give it to them?

Why all the drama every fall?

So if I own a store, and I know people are going to steal from me, I should just let them?

Pretty ****ing stupid, stripes.

How you feel about this issue is based on where you officiate and how you came up in officiating.

If taking this test is the only reason someone picks up a rulebook, then I do not want to work with you in the first place. I have always found it stupid the way some states administer this test (JMO). A test should not be the judge of someone's ability, what you do on the court or field should be.

Peace

Test was just posted today to take online. Should be getting the paper exam in the mail any time. Scored 100. Just like every year, be careful when reading these questions!

If I ask you for something from your store, you have it, don't mind parting with it and you give it to me, is it stealing?

No, it isn't.

Pretty ****ing stupid example, BktBallRef and it shows that the drama isn't over for this year apparently.

If someone needs assistance with their rules study why not just ask specific questions? Which to you sounds more genuine?

- Can someone give me all the answers to the test?

- I'm having trouble with the new double foul procedure, here's the play blah blah blah.... I'm sure by now nearly everyone realizes that some folks get assignments based on how well they do on the test.

Now that I've told you this everyone knows, hopefully.

My association uses a combination of the rules test and floor evaluations in their ratings. For us the rules test is taken closed book.

The best advice I have for you is READ THE CASE BOOK. Especially the cases applying to the new rules. Typically in the test (in case you haven't noticed in the past) there will be a question word-for-word out of the case book.

Look at it this way... If you don't know the rule inside and out, how can you make a correct interpretation on the floor.

You're right. Yours is a pretty ****ing stupid example.

Officials get assingments based on rankings. Offiicals get post season assignments based on classifications. Officials get state championship games based on criteria which include taking a closed book NFHS exam in some states. But as long as there are idiots like you who see nothing wrong with giving out the answers, then I guess there are officials like you who will continue to get games they don't deserve. That's for you, drama queen.

Just to come to W&S's defense...he didn't ask for the answers; he asked for the test. Of course, that didn't stop people from responding as if he did ask for the answers.



[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 6th, 2005 at 03:40 AM]

Why? Because several of us try to maintain an ethical standard not only for ourselves but our avocation. I believe it is as unetical to knowingly provide the means to cheat as it is to cheat. Sure, cheaters might find the answers anyway but that doesn't make it right. Plus, if we don't make them available freely, they might actually have to open a rulebook to pass the test on their own.

While it is certainly true that the test doesn't indicate a quality official, it does create a minumum standard. The passing score is usually a 70. Being a T/F test, you would score about 50 if you simply marked the answers randomly...without ever reading a question. So, to pass the test, you only have to know about 40% of them and guess on the rest.

In your area, maybe. In my area maybe, but not everywhere. People in several areas use the Part I test as a study aid. I am by no means advocating cheating in any form, but if you are in an area where the test doesn't mean anything towards your assignments, state tournament, etc. why not ask for and receive answers to help you in your rules study. IMO, we make way too much of this. My area happens to be one where the test means a little towards rankings, etc., but we take the Part I open book and can freely discuss the questions in groups.

I cna see that I have touched a sensative subject for you. I'm sorry that my schedule has been so upsetting for you. Since you know me so well and have seen my work on the court, you are absolutely qualified to decide what games I should, or shouldn't, get because idiots like me shouldn't get any games. This is exactly the kind of BS that gets spewed when someone gets their feelings hurt when someone else disagrees with an opinion. I think the drama queen tag has been misplaced.

Bottom line as far as I am concerned is don't share information that you are not comfortable sharing. If you want information, ask for it. You have to look at yourself in the mirror. You know if you are cheating. Govern yourself accordingly. No big deal.

You are right, I do not mean to imply W&S is asking for answers.

Here are the answers
 

So we can end all the bickering, I am going to now post the answers to the test..

True and False.....You just have to figure out where to put the answers :)

Thanks Big Whistle, for the help. I'm sure that many here appreciate it. ;)

That's pretty good Bigwhistle. I'll be stealing that for the next T-F test I give my students. Just for the record, in my area and the guys I usually work with use part I as a study aid. We usually do it on our own and then get together and talk about the ones we're not sure about. In Iowa they look at part II for your classification. Speaking of which, I should take it again one of these years to up my score.

very well put
 

I agree totally. There might be areas that use these for assignments, which is unfortunate. We know that simply making good on a test does not make a good official.

Personally, its great to be able to use the questions for studying.

I learn something new every year from give and take on questions from the tests.

Thanks
David

Great! Then ask for them, ONE ON ONE. Don't be a party to having them posted on a national discussion board for everyone, everywhere to see. That's the point!

Those that do not like the post do not have to read it. If you feel it is cheating, then it should not matter what form it is done. Who cares if the information is given here or in private, it still would be cheating right? At least according to you right?

Peace

I was just thinking for you oldsters..remember in Animal House when they planted the wrong test in the trash bin, so the Delta's would get the wrong test results.....

<img src="/images/icons/icon10.gif" alt="Talking" border=0> <FONT face="verdana,arial,helvetica" size="1" ><B></b></font>
<p><FONT face="arial, helvetica" size="2" ><img src="http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040927/images/popcorn.jpg" border=0>

Please pass me a diet coke.

Z

Amen!!!!

The opportunity to cheat is there if the answers are given out.

Some states won't write this exam until next month, and the exam <b>must</b> be passed to be certified in that area. Just because your area doesn't use this exam for evaluation reasons doesn't mean that <b>all</b> areas do the same.

Having said that, some idiot posts the answers every year anyway. This year probably won't be any different anyway.

ok...here we go..1 is true, 2 is True, 3 is False,..crap....my penny just fell behind the desk

I wish I had thought to write that. If you don't want to see it or if you think it is cheating...DON'T LOOK AT IT.

What is the difference between "one on one" and 100 at a time. None as far as I am concerned.

That sounded just as stupid when you said it as it did when Rut said it.

I will have Part 1 and answers when my rule books arrive. So for me, it makes no difference whether I see it or not. But I'm not going to post it for others to see who may be using it for advancement. If you can't see that, then you're a lot dumber than I originally thought.

One on one is the same as posting it on the Internet? Damn, that's dumb. If I know that I'm giving it to someone who has no other purpose than to use it to practice, that is not the same as poosting on the Internet. That's real dumb to think it's the same.

IF YOU POST IT, PEOPLE WILL USE IT TO CHEAT. Why would you want to be a party to that?

Why is this such an emotional issue?
 

Why is all this name calling necessary? I remember there being a conversation about coaches' ratings and whether it was a good thing. You remember rather clearly that you thought coaches giving ratings was silly. Well in my state the ratings have more of a bearing on state assignments than what we make on a test. As it relates to basketball, an official is not going to just jump levels of playoffs based on what happens on this test. I have not seen a person jump from only working a Regional the year before, to work a Super-Sectional the following year. The test is used one of many requirements to keep your license. I understand you feel strongly about this, but it does not mean every state or jurisdiction is using it the same. There are states that do not even use the NF tests at all. Are those guys cheating if they get the answers to a test their state will never use?

Peace

The Fed test? How much time is commonly given to complete it?
 

I plan to give the Fed test (100 questions) to a group who are candidates for board membership. How much time is commonly (or not) allocated for this?

Re: The Fed test? How much time is commonly given to complete it?
 

When we take it we get pretty much how ever long it takes. I don't know if anyone has ever taken more than an hour. You either know the stuff, or you don't. Not a lot of calculating involved!

Re: The Fed test? How much time is commonly given to complete it?
 

We get 1 hour for Part 2. I've never taken more than 20 minutes.

Re: The Fed test? How much time is commonly given to complete it?
 

My association allocates 1 hour for the exam. Most people finish in about 30-40 minutes.

I won't post it. I don't get the answers. I have already completed my test (by myself) and have rule references for all of my answers, but I still don't have a problem with someone posting it for the use of others.

You may not like the logic, but giving one answer to someone could be construed as cheating (given your logic, I don't know how you can differentiate it). Maybe it is the volume of answers involved that bothers you, I don't know. I do know that you can deride me or try to insult me and you won't change my opinion. I think you like to try and bully people into agreeing with you by trying to insult them or make them feel like they are not intelligent if they don't share your opinion. I don't share your feelings. If that makes me dumb, I'm dumb.

I know that I use the correct answers in a class I teach for new officials. I give them the correct answers so they can know what they did wrong on their tests without having to wait for the state to send them corrected tests back. IMO, a very legitimate use for the answers, but as I said earlier, I don't get the correct answers so I take them and use them. If others want to cheat, I certainly don't agree with their choice, but it is their choice and they have to live with it.

I know that I use the correct answers in a class I teach for new officials. <font color = red>I give them the correct answers so they can know what they did wrong on their tests without having to wait for the state to send them corrected tests back</font>.
[/B][/QUOTE]That's fine- <b>after</b> they've written their tests.

Would you give your class <b>all</b> of the answers to that same test weeks <b>before</b> they had to write it? Especially if state certification depended on them passing that particular test?

I was recently helping out with a football class for new officials and the current year's NF test was used. The answers were given out before the state gave out the scores. The purpose of the class was to get newer officials and our state signed off on the class and the curriculum. We are all not going to spaze out if the answers are given.

Our state gives out the Part 2 Exam for those officials that are going for promotion. They give them 2 hours to take the test. An hour seems kind of short if you ask me.

Peace

sure he did!! :)
 

sure he was asking for the answers, he asked for the test "to check his answers" that is how i took it anyways... you have to be given answers to check yours..i could be wrong though :)

With all the knowledge and exprience in this forum, why are people stressing, needing the answers. The test is not that difficult, if you have a reasonable knowledge of the rules, and usually, the way I get an incorrect answer is that the question is word-smithed so bad, it is barely intelligible english.

I mean, if you spend any time at all with the rule book, I can't see how you'd ever get lower than an 80%, and if you really study,lower than a 95%.

Who is stressing over it. If you have already taken the exam, some would like to know how they did or get some idea how they did. I know that we will not get the answers until right before the season starts. I would like to know if I answer the questions right before that time. I do not think anyone is stressing over this issue, they just want to see if they understand what the NF is asking. I learn more from the wrong answers or answers that are not scored than the answers I get right. That is why these tests do not really prove anything. It has been long established that the NF writes poorly worded questions or uses semantics when asking many of these questions. The Part 2 Football exam my state threw out 8 or 9 questions for being either ambiguous or not completely correct.

Peace

That's fine- <b>after</b> they've written their tests.

Would you give your class <b>all</b> of the answers to that same test weeks <b>before</b> they had to write it? Especially if state certification depended on them passing that particular test? [/B][/QUOTE]

That is when I use it, but I need the answers before then. My state certification doesn't work that way. If yours does <b>DON'T LOOK AT THE ANSWERS.</b> This is not that difficult of an issue. My original post in all of this was in that vein. I don't see the need to make it a big deal. If I don't get the answers early, fine. I don't pass it along to the class. If I do, great because it is a convinence for me.

That is when I use it, but I need the answers before then. My state certification doesn't work that way. If yours does <b>DON'T LOOK AT THE ANSWERS.</b> This is not that difficult of an issue. My original post in all of this was in that vein. I don't see the need to make it a big deal. If I don't get the answers early, fine. I don't pass it along to the class. If I do, great because it is a convinence for me. [/B][/QUOTE]So....making sure I'm deciphering your answer right.....you <b>would</b> give your training class all of the answers to your state exam <b>before</b> they had to write it. Correct?

And you don't see anything wrong with supplying test answers to people in <b>other</b> states that <b>do</b> have closed exams and whose state certification also depends on the mark of that test? Correct also?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 7th, 2005 at 03:53 PM]

I belong to two associations, as far as I know, neither one writes the NFHS test, so would it be too much to ask that someone who has the test e-mail it to me so I can use it to study for the test which I am required to write, I don't want the answers, just the test.

If you can help, drop me a line

So....making sure I'm deciphering your answer right.....you <b>would</b> give your training class all of the answers to your state exam <b>before</b> they had to write it. Correct?

And you don't see anything wrong with supplying test answers to people in <b>other</b> states that <b>do</b> have closed exams and whose state certification also depends on the mark of that test? Correct also?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 7th, 2005 at 03:53 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

I never said (or wrote) any of your assertations. If you read my posts, you will notice that I said the following: I said I don't have a problem with people sharing information. I also don't see a difference in sharing one answer or 100. I also wrote that if you need this test score for certification, ranking, etc., in your own area, don't look at the answers. I believe that we can be responsible s and govern ourselves regarding information we access.

Regarding my use of the test answers, I give the informationto the class after their tests are in. I turn in my test (which I stated I have already completed) at the same time that the class does. So, if I am going to share the information, I need to acquire the answers before I turn in my test. I never use the answers to boost my score. As I said before, my test is done.

As far as I am concerned, this is not about my situation, it is about helping each other. If you want the answers to help in your rule study and I have the answers, I would provide the answers to you. What you do with them is your deal. I am not the referee police (unlike several others on the board), but I do try to give back to my local group and help other officials progress in the careers. I believe my group benefits and appreciates what I do, if you don't, fine, ignore me.

Unfortuneately, I have helped this thread decend into what I decried in my original post...<b>DRAMA</b>. For those of you who agree with me about the drama, my apologies.

One final time from me, Share the answers appropriately, whether it is one answer or 100. If your area uses the part I test for your rankings, etc...<b><font color = red>DON'T CHEAT!<b></font>

Stripes, I understand you perfectly now.

Drama? Nope. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply a matter of ethics, not drama. That's just my own personal opinion though.

I just don't agree with you, or your philosophy, or with anybody that may happen to share it. I never will. I also recognize that it's a waste of time to debate this further with you....so I won't.

JR,

Write all the officials up that violate your code of ethics. Then maybe this you will get everyone on the same page. Considering that everyone's state that you are not licensed in will give a damn what you think.

This is not about ethics, this is about different systems. I took tests in college where we could take home the test and discuss the test with fellow students. That is how I look at our testing system as it relates to the Part 1 exam. If our state wanted the test to be a secret, then they would not give us our scores online and they would not mail the test out to everyone to take on their own time. I will be attending a meeting where the test will be talked about tomorrow. Now when I was in school, talking about any answer was cheating. So if these tests are so important, we should never discuss the tests at all until every state or organization in the country has taken them. If the scores are so vital to assignments, discussing just one answer might put someone over the top and get them a state final. In our point system it could be one or two answers that will give an official the most points, so discussing any answer would be cheating (if I use your logic).

There are many that will never agree on this issue. I am still shocked that it comes up every year and it is such a heated discussion.

Peace

I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as those who have the test answers because they are authorized to have them for a specific purpose. They have a responsibility as conservators of copywritten material.

Those who have the answers because their dutchy conducts its test before another, if they would avoid being caught in a tangled web, would do well to just hold on to the information - if they can't guarantee, to themselves and their God, it will not be misused.

Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

Copywritten material?

First of all my state throws out test questions every year in every test bacause the NF either writes the questions poorly or the question is confusing. I am sure some states take the information and do not throw out questions at all and those people have to live with the consequences of what they answer. Once again, if you do not want to violate any rules in your state, do not read this posts that involve the test. It is really simple. Most officials I know do not even know this place exsists or that they can get answers of any kind on the internet. I am sure that is the case where everyone else lives. Some officials I know do not even use email, so what difference does it make?

Peace

Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]Yes. It says "Copyrighted and Published in 2005 by the National Federation of State High School Associations." It's property.

Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

Giving the answers is not going to violate copyright law. :rolleyes:

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

The four fair use factors:
What is the character of the use?
What is the nature of the work to be used?
How much of the work will you use?
What effect would this use have on the market for the original or for permissions if the use were widespread?

May we rely on your advice about copyright?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

Why has there never been a lawsuit that anyone can reference? Every year I have seen test answers given all over the internet and I have never heard of a lawsuit. I guess you would know. :rolleyes:

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

So, may we rely on your counsel?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

Do not turn this on me. I am not the one that claimed there were copyright laws violated. Where is your evidence? Simply quoting information is not violating copyright law. If it is, then show us some case law and precedent to show that?

Just saying something on the internet is not going to make it true.

Peace

But you are the one claiming . . . or not claiming
 

But you are the one claiming . . . or not claiming . . . that there is no copyright violation involved. I didn't say there was. I said the material is copywritten. I said that those who have the material legally, as I do, have a responsibility to act in conformity with copyright law. You said this can't be a problem because you don't see any instances of it's being a problem. Well, maybe. But you don't want us to rely on your representation.

Re: But you are the one claiming . . . or not claiming
 

You are the one making the claim copyright laws are being violated. Prove that is a fact. Until then I stand by the fact that there is no violation of copyright laws to simply put "true or false" on any website. I have been here a long time and I have never seen that argument made by anyone but you.

Peace

Re: Re: But you are the one claiming . . . or not claiming
 

True. Or false.

Which part of 'I didn't say copyright laws were being violated by 'putting true or false' on any website' don't you understand?

I said that those who have the test, and the answers, legally " . . . have a responsibility as conservators of copywritten material."

How do I know that? Because I have made a living in part via intellectual property? Nah. Because it says 'copyright' on the test. What is fair use for those of us who have the test legally? I'm not even _trying_ to tell you. I'm just raising consciousness.

Re: Re: Re: But you are the one claiming . . . or not claiming
 

Could you produce one court case dealing specifically with the internet that would make it illegal for people on the internet to discuss this test or copyrighted material?

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: But you are the one claiming . . . or not claiming
 

"Could you produce one court case dealing specifically with the internet that would make it illegal for people on the internet to discuss this test or copyrighted material?"


It depends on what you mean by 'discuss'. If you quote some (small) element of copyrighted material as part of a review or for teaching purposes, among other things, that may be alright. If you provide entire questions and answers, that may not be alright.

Brad Templeton (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html) notes: "Fair use is a complex doctrine meant to allow certain valuable social purposes. Ask yourself why you are republishing what you are posting and why you couldn't have just rewritten it in your own words."

If you reproduce the Fed test and the answers here in this forum, I'll be glad to forward it to the them for you.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But you are the one claiming . . . or not claiming
 

Who said anything about reproducing the test and the answers? I know I would never copy the test a post the answers here or any place. That would be tedious and silly. I might post my answers and see what others think about them. I am still trying to figure out what any of this has to do with copyright law? If someone posts only the answers, I am not sure that would be a violation of any law. It might be considered cheating on the test in some jurisdictions, but not violating any law.

Oh well, I guess you cannot really answer the question. So it is time to move on.

Peace



I doubt it; you don't know me.

I was always taught that we have chosen an avocation that is based on integrity. If we don’t have integrity, we are not worth a thing. We penalize coaches and players who even question our integrity. I happen to believe that this is a trait that we need in our lives.

Are there people out there without pure motives and who will use others for their personal gain.

Sure.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that people who know correct principles can govern their own actions, especially in the world of officiating. I know of many legitimate uses of the answers. Does a chance exist for the misuse of the information? Absolutely, but I have chosen to live my
life in a manner that places trust and confidence in other people, especially in my avocation. We have to trust our partners and others throughout our lives.

I hope you can find a way to trust your partners, because based on your reactions to a few written lines, I have my doubts about that.

I am also done with this thread.

I hope you can find a way to trust your partners, because based on your reactions to a few written lines, I have my doubts about that.

[/B][/QUOTE]I trust my partners.

I also would never work with a partner that would give out exam answers before that exam was written. That is one partner that I just couldn't trust.

How would you know?

Peace

Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by assignmentmaker
QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
<b>Copywritten material?



Yes. It says "Copyrighted and Published in 2005 by the National Federation of State High School Associations." It's property.
</b>

I would doubt seriously that FED would go to the trouble to pay the copyright fees just for a simply test.

If they do, that's great, but I would assume (maybe erroneously) that someone just added that onto the paper work - that's easy to do.

Its too much trouble to get things copyright protected etc.,

And what are they copyright protecting? Questions that are often misworded or poorly worded?

And then to have to pay lawyers to go to court to sue someone over putting a few questions about the rules on the web??

Don't think so.

And I haven't checked in a while, but FED was in the process of even putting their rule books online on their website during the summer.

Thanks
David

Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B

Quote:

Originally posted by assignmentmaker QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge <b>Copywritten material? Yes. It says "Copyrighted and Published in 2005 by the National Federation of State High School Associations." It's property. </b> I would doubt seriously that FED would go to the trouble to pay the copyright fees just for a simply test. If they do, that's great, but I would assume (maybe erroneously) that someone just added that onto the paper work - that's easy to do. Its too much trouble to get things copyright protected etc., And what are they copyright protecting? Questions that are often misworded or poorly worded? And then to have to pay lawyers to go to court to sue someone over putting a few questions about the rules on the web?? Don't think so.

You don't have to pay fees to be copyrighted. Simply publishing and noting the you own the copyright is all that is required.

They place it there so others can't take the tests and make a profit without their approval....I'd be certain that the ARS CD's are made with a licensing fee.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Originally posted by David B Quote: Originally posted by assignmentmaker QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge <b>Copywritten material? Yes. It says "Copyrighted and Published in 2005 by the National Federation of State High School Associations." It's property. </b> I would doubt seriously that FED would go to the trouble to pay the copyright fees just for a simply test. If they do, that's great, but I would assume (maybe erroneously) that someone just added that onto the paper work - that's easy to do. Its too much trouble to get things copyright protected etc., And what are they copyright protecting? Questions that are often misworded or poorly worded? And then to have to pay lawyers to go to court to sue someone over putting a few questions about the rules on the web?? Don't think so. You don't have to pay fees to be copyrighted. Simply publishing and noting the you own the copyright is all that is required. They place it there so others can't take the tests and make a profit without their approval....I'd be certain that the ARS CD's are made with a licensing fee.

My experience is only with music and there is a copyright fee for music. Maybe its different for simply putting out a document - I'll check with my copyist to see.

Thanks
David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

A work is under the protection of copyright the moment is it painted, recorded, written, etc. You can't sue until you have registered but you own the rights in any case. The registration is something that can be used to prove ownership if someone else claims to have created the work.

See http://www.publaw.com/cfaqs.html for more info.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta agree with Jurassic insofar as
 

However, that is only is effective once you have obtained the copyright which does cost you a fee (nominal)

I just don't see FED going to that trouble for a simple test that anyone could write.

But, we are talking about FED here so ...

Thanks anyway
David