I had a situation last night at a girls freshmen game. I will admit I did not handle the situation properly. Rule 10-5 states;
The coach must remain sitted on the bench when the clock is running inside the coaches box. So, I asked the coach to have a seat there wasn't anything spetacular going on and he's up by 20. He refuse telling me that he can stand as long as he wants as long as he is not on my case as an official and this is how he coaches. I got that and I understand the problem that I see it is. There may be official ahead of me who allow this to happen me being fairly new to this trying to enforce the rules have an different time when situations like this arises. I will state again I did not handle the situation properly. The actions I could have taken was to T him up thus enforcing the seat belt rule. I have written this down in my journal as a lesson learned and I can honestly say when this situation arises again I will not hesitate again to enforce the seat belt rule. I find it frustrating that some my predecessors are not enforcing this rule IMO. One other thing Rule 1-13NOTE STATES: A head coach can stand in the coaches box to give instruction to his team if you local state association adopts it as a rule. I will check with my state to see if they have adopted it as a rule to further educate myself. I would like to know how do some of you handle a situation like this?

Rook,

Before I get to your situation, please let me share another very important insight with you regarding the Coach's Box.

There isn't one.

Rather, it's a coaching box. I know this is a minor point, but I think it helps to maintain the correct perspective. The coach does not own the box. He can't do whatever he wants, as long as he's in "his" box. He's allowed to coach while standing there, period. Now many of us give the coach a little latitude on what they can say or ask of us while they're standing in the box. But by rule, the box is only for coaching his players. It's not the coach's box; you can take it away at any time, if the situation calls for it.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. :)

Now, in your specific situation, there are two ways to go. First, if you're not sure whether your state has authorized the use of a coaching box, go ask the site administrator. It sounds like this was a HS game. So , find the school's AD and ask him/her if your state uses a coaching box. (What state are you in, anyway? Somebody here will probably be able to tell you what your state's rule is.) If you can't find the AD, then. . .

Second, simply look at the floor in front of the bench. Is there a 6' (or 14') box marked on the floor? If so, let the coach use it. My best guess is that the school wouldn't have wasted the money to paint the box if the state didn't allow its use. If there's no box marked, then you can honestly tell the coach, "Coach, there's no box marked, so there's no way for us to enforce it. Therefore, we won't be using a box tonight at all."

Now, once you say that, the coach will either realize that you know your stuff (no box in your state), or he'll immediately find the other coach and they will have somebody put down tape to mark the box.

In either case, I would try to minimize the amount of verbiage with the coach.

Good luck getting an answer for your state.

truerookie,
Just looked at my book and I could not find the information above. Check the date of your book and the publisher.
...And, allow the coach to stand in the coaching box.
mick

Truerookie, so long as they're coaching their team, I let them stand. Very few of them sit in a chair during practice where they do alot of coaching, to have them sit during the game is not east for most. Now, if they want to use the coaching box to ride the refs you've got a different situation.

The book I used is the NFHS 2004. It is rule 10 section 5 art 1.

CSF,can I call you that? I have to be honest with you. I wanted to T his A%% however, it would not have made the situation any better. I will go on the record and say I let logic run its course and not T him.

What state are you in?

From the coach's statements, I would guess that your state allows the coach to stand in the coaching box. If that's true and he was coaching and not interfering with you, then you have no reason to ask him to sit.

truerookie,
NFHS 2005-06 Rule 10-5-1 says:
"By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 [<I>coaching box defined</I>], to give instructions to his/her players and/or substitutes.

This must be one of those 'edits for clarity'. ;)
mick

My advice would be not to ask the coach to do something you're not 100% sure about. You went looking for a confrontation, in his view, for no reason. When he confronted you, you did not have the rules knowledge to explain to him why you wanted him to sit. Possibly a better way to handle it would be to talk to your partner ("Hey Partner, should we be telling this guy to sit?) or wait and look up the rule after the game. I can understand why you wanted to T the guy up, but would it have made the game better, especially considering the score. I think you did all right by not giving the T in this situation (and trust me, I'm not one to be soft on sportsmanship).

Junker,
I do have the rules knowledge believe me if I did not I would have asked my partner about the situation or I would not have said anything. I did look it up after the game and it just confirmed what I thought was Rule 10-5-1. I tabbed it as a lesson learned and I will address it in my pregame in the future with the coaches.

Mick,
thanks, this is way I am going to ask the State.

BBR, I am in Missouri.

Rook

I'm confused. In the above post, you said that you "have the rules knowledge." In the first post, you said that you "will check with my state to see if they have adopted it."

I don't see how both can be true statements.

All, I am saying the rule states they must remain seated when the clock is running unless they are shout instructions to their players or applauding a spectacular play/effort.

[Edited by truerookie on Sep 16th, 2005 at 12:14 PM]

Pre-games with coaches?
 

When we pre-game U.P. here, it just for the officials.
Coaches are not expected to be within hearing distance. ;)
mick

Truerookie, if there's nothing spectacular going on, and the coach is just standing there, why are you initiating contact with him/her? Unless they do something to get your attention (screaming, waving arms, being a dexter-head, etc) why even pay any attention to the coach?

Re: Pre-games with coaches?
 

I may not have put it in a manner I thought it would be taken. I thought after meeting the team captain's you meet the coaches and as you meet the coach I can mention the coaches box. Do you not meet the coaches in U.P? I can cover with my partner.

Is it not a rule or not? a rule is a rule

Rook, I'm not trying to pile on, but it sounds to me that you don't really know all the aspects of the Head Coaches' Rule (10-5). The underlined part of what you wrote above is called "coaching" ;) and standing up to coach is not allowed unless your state has adopted the coaching box.

"Shouting instructions" and "applauding an outstanding play" are in two different categories. A coach is allowed to briefly stand for the latter even if your state has not adopted the coaching box. However, a coach may not rise for the former without benefit of a coaching box.

Take another look through 10-5, just to get more familiar with it.

I think this is a POE this year. So, you're probably going to hear a lot more about this topic.

Where are you at in Missouri? I'm in St. Louis. Curious where you worked a girls freshman game as it could have ONLY been part of a fall season rec league. Now you're talking about a volunteer parents coaching.

Good question, dj!

Truerookie is admittedly a rookie, so he is still attempting to interpolate all the rules into an easy to understand "system".

For example, if the coach had been standing long enough to get a 20-point lead, then the coaching box rule must be applicable to his State for at least that much of the game.
All of a sudden, from that mishmash of disjointed information, a rookie will remember [outa the blue (or is it gray matter)] a phrase in one of the books and after a little consideration, he acts on it,

So it is that truerookie, though he is still working on the system, has not put together R10-5-1 with Rule 1-13-2 [Note] and with the Case studies of 10.5 where they talk about 'the optional coaching box'.

New officials are just learning and using the letter, not the intent of [certain] rules? They appear to be overly officious, as truerookie obviously appeared to that coach, because all the rules have failed to blend, but will with diligence.

mick

Re: Re: Pre-games with coaches?
 

Coaches are invited to the Captain's meeting. 5% will show up because they have all "heard it before".
Generally, our only contact with coaches is 1-1/2 minutes before the game where my partners wish each coach "Good luck", and I wish them to "have a good game". :)
mick

So ChrisSportsFan, does Missouri use the box?
mick

Yes and so long as they are using it to coach, I don't even know they're up. (practically speaking)

You and I know that, Mick, and we know that there is way too much going on out on the court to be paying attention to the coaches - unless they do something to attract our attention...sometimes it's hard to remember those early years when the letter of the law was more important to me than the intent...but I just can't imagine confronting a coach who is simply standing there doing absolutely nothing...that's a no-win situation.

been there.
 

Well, when that single phrase [coach may not stand] pops to the forefront of a busy mind, and the rest of the rule is yet to be learned, then, yeah, I can see a well-meaning rookie make an uninformed decision.
When that happens, the thought may become dominant and the focus may narrow until the new official just deals with it and ultimately ends up with a "m'bad". :)
mick

On a kind of funny related topic...I used to lift weights with a guy that was a first year coach. One night I came in and he tells me he got his first T. I asked what he did and he told me he got up off the bench and threw his hands up in the air at a no-call. I said, "Yep, that's a T (this was a freshman HS game)." He tells me he couldn't believe he got it. I asked what the rule was and he tells me the rule almost to the letter, "I can stand to applaud a spectacular play or to instruct my players." I said,"Yep." He says, "I can't believe I didn't get a warning or something." Makes you wonder sometimes.

That is not what the rule says. (10-5, 1 & 2) allows the coach to stand "to spontaneously react to an outstanding play" but it says nothing about instructing players. The coach may also stand to request a time out, confer with the scorer's table for a correctable error, replace a player within 30 seconds, attend to an injured player (when beckoned) and to confer with his team during a time out or between periods.

If he wants to instruct his players while standing, he needs to be in a state that has adopted the coaching box rule.

I agree that we should not initiate contact with a coach when things are going along nicely, but I believe that we need to pay attention to what the coach is doing throughout the game. Lots of the screaming, waving arms and being a dexter-head comes, in my experience, from officials not paying attention to what the coach is doing until he demands attention from his actions.

Paying attention to what is going on with the coach can prevent molehills from becoming mountains. Part of officiating is knowing what is going on outside the lines as well as what is going on inside the lines.

Updated
 

<font color = green><B>NFHS 2005-06 Rule 10-5-1 says:
"By state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2 [coaching box defined], to give instructions to his/her players and/or substitutes.
</font></B>

The point of my post was that he definitely understood the intent of the rule, he was up complaining, and then he was still suprised he got T'd up.

Au contraire!
The offensive coach only raised his hands, didn't swear, yell or scream. Was he inciting, or was he amazed at the fine defensive play.

If he's not verbalizing, I have a problem 'Whacking' him.
But then, I don't 'Whack' as often as I probably should.
mick

i think that rook also needs to keep in mind that the rule book talks about the head coach having the privilege of the coaching box--- thus it is not a right. the box does not belong to him. as long as he is coaching his players in the box, leave him alone.

CSF,
I am west of you in Waynesville/ST. Robert area no fall rec league there are no rec's in this particular area. Frisco league Freshmen games.

elecref, I agree with you on everything except the part "leave him alone" if a coach is not authorize by rule to stand continously why let'em?

Rook

I view it like any other rule which must be enforced. If it is being violated why not correct it.

Chuck, thanks, I understand it. I ran two scenerios together. The coach was not doing any of the three items listed under 10-5 coaches rule. I have a NOTE in my particular book which states: by state association adoption, the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box to give instructions to his/her players and or substitutes. The way I see it does not state he/she can continously stand within the confines of the box.

Rook, please talk to some of the <i>veteranos</i> in your association before you take this too far. You're picking nits that don't need to be picked. Iow, chill. Technical fouls are basically divided into 2 types;procedural types like book errors and unsporting Ts. A coach just coaching is neither. Concentrate on the players on the floor. If you do the job there, you'll have a lot less problems with the coaches during your career.

JR,
Thanks, for the advice.

I would like to thank all of you for your input. Some I agree with some I do not the one thing I gather from the entire situation is I will continue to eat my "Honey Nuts Cheerios" and develop. Thanks again to all.

The problem is that a rookie hears two opposing voices and has trouble balancing them out. I speak from experience here, I've had this problem myself.

One voice says, "The rule is the rule, and you must enforce the rule. If you let them get by with it, you just make it harder for the next ref."

The other voice says, "It's clear that the intent isn't to whack every (whatever infraction) defined right down to the last centimeter. You've got to let some of that stuff roll off you back, relax a little."

These are said by equally experienced and elevated refs in equally uncertain circumstances, and the problem is for the rookie to sort out when to be firm and unwavering, and when to be flexible and magnanimous.

Truerookie, the only thing for you to do is to go to games that are being worked by experienced refs in your area, and watch what they let go and what they crack down on. Interpretation does vary by association, and by locality.

Also, note that when the coaching box is in effect, continuous standing IS legal. That's why the coaching box is for. The rule says it's not legal, but that only applies when the coaching box is not adopted in that state. If your state has the coaching box, then the coach is allowed to stand continuously, as long as he's just coaching.

Also, could you please put a little more punctuation into your posts? It's a little hard to understand what you're trying to say sometimes.

There are ways to manage the coaching box other than a technical foul.

My pregame conference with the coaches is very brief. I maybe say three things. However, one of those things is always to remind the coach that he/she needs to stay in the box and they need to be coaching if they are up. Not only does it let some of the less knowledable ones know the rule, but it also lets them know that the crew is aware of the box and that we will be monitoring it.

If the coach stands the whole time when the game begins, a quick conversation when you find yourself in front of the coach on a dead ball does wonders: "Hey coach, can you help me out on the coaching box? You can stand while coaching, but you need to sit while watching." Say it with a smile. Since it was mentioned in the pregame conference, they know what you're talking about.

There are also some hand signals to use if you find yourself opposite the bench. The "wave-in" signal is almost always greeted with a coach looking down and realizing he/she is out of the box followed by a grin and them getting back in the box. The "wave-down" signal is almost always greeted with a coach immediately sitting down (or starting to coach instead of just stand).

It bothers me when I work a game with a ref who says, "as long as the coaches aren't yelling at us I don't care where they are." IMHO, that's just an excuse for an official who hasn't learned how to ref more than just the 84-feet of court. Managing coaches is part of our job. If you don't monitor bench decorum and keep it under control, you probably will end up with no choice than to give a T. I prefer the preventative approach. :)

Z

Au contraire!
The offensive coach only raised his hands, didn't swear, yell or scream. Was he inciting, or was he amazed at the fine defensive play.

If he's not verbalizing, I have a problem 'Whacking' him.
But then, I don't 'Whack' as often as I probably should.
mick [/B][/QUOTE]

I wouldn't have thrown the T on him in a V game, but in a Freshman game, it would depend on how he has been up to that point. What I found funny was that he knew the rule almost exactly, but was upset that he got his T. The same guy got into some trouble with his V coach later that season, because as an assistant he jumped up to complain during a tight V game and got a T that didn't help their team in the least.

I think part of the problem, Jeff, is that in Iowa, girls' coaches can stand and boys' coaches can't. Veteran coaches know this. New ones don't and get grumpy when you enforce it.
Veteran coaches (even at the JV level) get pi$$y when you let the other guy stand too much. I've found that by letting this go, I've set myself up for problems. It's a lot easier to minimize the chirping when coach is on his bench. They seem to be bolder when standing.
I've found plenty of reasons to enforce this, and they outweigh (IMO) any reasons I may have for letting it go. If they're up briefly and back down before I have a chance to address it; I'll assume he's applauding his team.
Now, with the girls, I don't care if coach is just "watching" or is actively coaching. The box is there for them to coach, and nothing says silence can't be a coaching technique.

I agree that the difference in rules for us Iowans is a problem. Personally, I like having the coaches up. It's easier to communicate with them. At one of the summer camps, however, the head of officials (boys side) said that there was no way the boys coaches were ever going to be up while he is around. He said it was too hard to get them down in the first place, so there's no way we're going to let them up. On a side note, have you heard we're dumping the coin toss on the girls' side? It's about time I think.

I checked the girls' site when I was gone, and noticed they seem to be getting rid of most of the differences. Adaptations 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 10 have been deleted. They're only keeping 4, 5 (uniform numbers), 9 (free throw lineup), and 11 (one coach can stand in the coaching box).
http://www.ighsau.org/hoops/bb2006/bbchanges.htm

I hadn't heard about the rest of the adaptations being gone. Maybe they're making strides to join the two unions. The only adaptation the girls have that I like is the free throw line up. I think it gets rid of some rebounding fouls.

Personally, I liked the way the girls changed the alternating possession rule, but I'd still rather both orgs be on the same page. In this case, uniformity trumps perfection. :)

Where I used to live, Wisconsin, the coaching box was only available during varsity games. All other levels were seat belted. It is an advantage if one coach is standing and coaching his players while the other abides by the seatbelt rule. When that happened, I would warn the offending coach once. Next time he was up, I'd blow my whistle and ask him/her if they wanted a full or thirty. They'd usually look puzzled and go on about they weren't requesting a time out. At which I'd reply, "Well you were standing so I thought you were requesting a time out. It's either that or a tech. What'll it be?" "Thirty" was the normal answer. Didn't have a problem after that.

Now for those who say don't go looking for trouble, if the rules are for them to remain on the bench, it is an advantage for them to stand and converse with their players. At this point, I was "auditioning" for varsity games and I didn't see it as over-officiating rather as fairly enforcing the rules. Not that I agree with the rule, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but it was the local rule.

Mregor