I am a fairly new official and after officiating for 2 years had to call my first T. It was at a team camp and after making a call, a player turned to me pointed to me and said "your f#@*$ing rotten". I called a flagrant foul and tossed him for the remainder of the game. I have heard a few different evaluations of my call. Some say due to the nature of the language that it was flagrant. Others have told me that even though it was bad, it was only a technical foul and he would have to have another T to get tossed. The third interpretation was that it was only one technical foul, but you could sit him down for the rest of the game. What is the proper procedure for this scenario. Does it have to be physical to be flagrant? I thought after two years and over 60 games that I would be ready for my first T, but I must admit I did get a little fired up. Just to add to it, my partner had to toss the coach of the player just 5 minutes before and the team was losing by about 20 points. It really didn't get much better either. Any help would be appreciated.

SJ

you were
 

perfectly fine -- unless this is the NBA he's gone -- he made it personal by what he said and that in my opinion is a tossable offense.

Flagrant all the way.

Without a doubt, no question.

I'm confused by the third interp., unless the evaluator (or whoever told you this) was meaning that it's a flag. T, which is only one technical plus an ejection (he "sits the rest of the game" part?).

It doesn't have to be physical to be flagrant; non-physical contact can have the same result. You just have to decide whether you think it's deserving; IMO, this is 50-50, but I probably would have only T'd, not tossed.

He's done and depending on the team camp, he might be done with the camp.

You gonna let a kid look at you and call you a Moth#$f$%#$ and just give him a T? There are certain things that an adult should not allow a kid to do or say. Tolerence of this is what has led our sportsmanship in this country to be what it is. Please don't bring in the "but it is the way these kids are raised" or "that is just a figure of speech to them" argument.

Sometimes you have to punish someone in order to get their attention enough in order for them to even consider changing their way of doing things and trying to become better people, which is, btw, one of the purposes of interscholastic athletics.

tmp44, you're a stupid @#$%%$@ if you don't think that's flagrant. :)

Sam, yes, he's gotta go. And in my state, he would be suspended for two more games if this was a high school game.

"And you're f***ing done for the night, buddy."

Send that mother****er to the shower.

I have no problem with your call. I would of handled it the exact same way.

You know to be honest, you did it exactly correct. He would have gotten a T real quick for the finger point, and then another one for the WORD's so any way it would have went he would have been gone.

I can not believe that someone told you that it was not a F.T.

What is this game coming too!!!!!

That is why i am abt to give it up!!!

Quick Short and In A Hurry!!

For my money, you nailed it. Think of it as the basketball equivalent of sending him to time out. :) I am frankly astonished that anybody would have a problem with this call -- it made itself. Plus it's a summer game and they're losing by 20, so it's not like your call had any impact on the outcome of the game (I am not suggesting you pass on this in a close game). Hopefully he learned his lesson today and won't cost him team when it really counts.

You're right about getting fired up. It happens, even to vets. I pre-game with my partners that when one of us has a T, we meet before reporting. It gives us a chance to let our heart rate settle a bit and to discuss the penalty and what we're going to tell the coach before we report it. Screwing up and shooting at the wrong basket or saying the wrong thing to the coach just makes a difficult situation worse ;)

BITS,

Interesting idea...something that I might start to do.

Me too!

Let us not confuse vet's with experience and professionalism.

No brainer, good call.

I agree, it's a good call, but I*m still going to comment- cause in my book it says that, an unsportsmanlike (probably what you call flagrant, if not-please correct me) foul must involve a contact (exception, player touching a ref= a technical) a technical does not, I would however throw him out, either a double technical (it's happened) or a disqualifing foul (game punishment, no report sent in)- but I think you did the right thing, especially scince I don't think you follow the same rules I do when you're calling games (and I'm following the "swedish playyrules for basketball 2004"-that's the latest edition we have here).

OK, you're gone
 

This was something I experienced my second year of summer ball. I was initially taken aback (for about a second), then gave him a flagrant T and showed him the bench.

The pre-report meeting with the other official is a good suggestion and something I will now pregame for.

NCAA rulebook (I imagine NFHS is similar) describes non-contact flagrant T's as involving "extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive conduct".

This is the textbook definition of that.

Great call. Chuck his sorry a** - hopefully other punishment was handed out by the camp organizers.

Flagrant can have no contact...
 

See rule 4-19-4

"A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical NONCONTACT foul which displays unacceptable conduct...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or NONCONTACT at any time which is extreme or persistant, vulgar or abusive conduct."

So I guess the #$%^& language applies!

Joe

[Edited by JosephG678 on Aug 18th, 2005 at 02:13 PM]

Re: Flagrant can have no contact...
 

How about:

RULE 10, SECTION 3 <FONT COLOR=RED>PLAYER TECHNICAL</FONT>
A player shall not:
ART. 10 . . . Be charged with <FONT COLOR=RED>fighting. </FONT>

and

RULE 4, SECTION 18 <FONT COLOR=RED>FIGHTING </FONT>
Fighting is a flagrant act and <FONT COLOR=RED>can occur when the ball is dead or live</FONT>
. <FONT COLOR=RED>Fighting includes</FONT>, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet <FONT COLOR=RED>regardless of whether contact is made. </FONT>


Fighting is about the attempt to cause harm to the other person. It doesn't matter if they make contact or not.

I know it is a different sport, but the finger point needs to be dealt with. Football: I'm the crew chief for a semi-final a few weeks ago. I follow behind the play and see a guy get knocked to the ground. It was because an opponent losing his balance. This is not a penalty in football. A player pointed right at my line judge and asked him what the h3LL he was looking at. My flag came out even before he finished the sentence: it was for the finger point. Such an easy call. Then he points to me and tells me he can't wait to see me after the game. That was an easy ejection, plus another 10 yards. :)

I guess point is the finger point. Players: don't do that.

Good point; point bad.

Sorry.

samj,
Obviously this was a good call on your part. But I do have one question: How in the world did you do two years without giving a T?

Refnrev, i was thinking the same thing. I have been officiating for two yrs myself and i have handed out several T's (I am not boasting about them) they were warranted. I actually had a coach per se beg for one and when he received it he said "thank you." I realized than situations require a little "Technical loving."

first technical
 

I guess I just have the right demeanor. I am definitely not quick to react. I have never had an athlete even come close to deserving a technical. It is also important to point out that I officiate in a very rural area. When a coach is getting close I simply go over to him/her and put up the hand (stop sign) and say coach, I have heard enough. This has always worked for me. I have worked with other officials that have called technicals on coaches, but probably less than five times. I think it is important to point out that I am not in a hurry to move up the ranks. All of the games I have officiated are at the JV level, so I believe the coaches are a little more passive. Another point is that my father in law is an excellent official and has has two state final games in Pennsylvania and rarely calls a technical. I try to emulate his demeanor on the court of showing respect to coaches and players, but at the same time letting them know who is in charge. He has told me that if the coach has a legitimate question to at least acknowledge them and try to explain if possible. He then mentioned that if you give them the stop sign and it continues to bang them.

Re: first technical
 

Right demeanor or not, coaches are still coaches. Yes, I fully agree that our reactions and demeanor can help keep coaches calm and in the game. We can help them thru situations.

IMO, the JV coaches can be tougher than V coaches. They've had some successes and want to continue moving up to the V level so they push the limits more often. Also, many summer league coaches and rec coaches all perpetrait their favorite NBA or D1 coach and think they're almost there and YOU stand in their way.

My tolerence in the off season is way way shorter than in regular season games. Samj, now that you've broke your cherry, I bet they come a little quicker from here on.

Re: Re: first technical
 

Mouth. . .dry. . .head. . .spinning. . .light. . .fading. . .perpe. . .per. . .can't. . .breathe. . .

Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

Maybe he meant participate? Or was it propagate?

Chuck? Are you there?

Chuck?

Re: Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

Whoa.....you can go blind doing that.

I quit when I needed glasses.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

Tsk, tsk.

I never figured you to be one to quit early.

Re: Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

You mean propagation is the sincerest form of flattery?!?!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

I meant to say...they try to act like

Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

ROFLMAO!!!

right up there with: "I would of handled it this way..." or "he would of been wrong..."

[Edited by mdray on Sep 2nd, 2005 at 02:12 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

I know, Chris. But since I'm the resident Annoying Grammar/Spelling Guy, I thought a joke would be appropriate.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: first technical
 

I can laugh at myself just as easily as you can laugh at me.

That's a good trait for a ref to have. ;)