A1 is driving to the hole and B1 steps in to take the charge. They collide and we have a double whistle and we have the dreaded blarge call. The basket goes in. Both officials report the fouls and the basket is counted. Since in the case of a double foul we go to POI where is POI in this case. I was wanting everybodies opinion whether you should:

A)clear the lane, give the one free throw, then give the ball to the other team for a running endline throw-in.

B)Put everybody on the line and just shoot the one free throw

C)Just give the ball to the other team for a running endline throw-in.

Would love to hear everybody's thoughts.

I'll go out on a limb and recommend: (FED rules)

D-the basket does not count because of the offensive foul.

2 shots because fouled on an unmade basket.

I believe no one on the line and ball to team B. But I think that rule might have been changed for the coming year to POI so let people get in rebound position during the free throws.


[Edited by oc on Aug 11th, 2005 at 06:39 AM]

Without my books. . .

Count the basket, no FTs, ball to B anywhere along the endline for throw-in.

Remember this is not an "offensive" or team control foul, it's a double foul. So the basket is good if it goes. There are no FTs awarded for a double foul.

4.19.7 is the case book reference. It is not a player control, because it's a double foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead. Count the basket. No free throws.(Alternating possession throw-in results).

Wouldn't we now (due to the rule change) just give it to B to run the end line?

That answer sounds kind of familiar. . . ;)

Seriously, thanks for the citation.

Can you help me with one thing.

You both blew your whistle at the same time correct.

Or is this not a real play you are just asking.

My concern is why didnt you both discuss it quickly instead of you both making the call.

Was this just something you made up or did it really happen.

Yes you would give B the ball just like the play never happend if the bucket went in.

But in this original post i confused

LTG I have never had this play personally, but a crew in my assosciation had it last year and they got it all right but they didn't count the basket when it went in.

Yes they blew their whistles at the same time, but I am saying they both gave to quick of a prelim signal before making eye contact with their partner, therefore since both gave the signals already the mechanic says that you report both, which is a double foul, and the basket counts, and then they went with the arrow, but now it would be POI, which would be an endline throw-in for the other team.

I guess my question was answered.


I was jsut curious, as to why th did not make eye contact when they both heard there whistle.

I know (or he did anyways) MTD and I both have the same thoughts about this case. One of us is going to eat this call - it's either a block or a charge. I know these things <i>can</i> happen. However, you if pre-game this, 99.9% of the time you're going to avoid it. I also know this wasn't the question! :) :p

How's everyone slooooooooow Friday mornin' going?

I guess this is the difference between a case book situation and an approved ruling. My understanding in an AR is that that the official has no choice on how to continue the game - the procedure has already been determined. An AR in teh ACC is an AR in teh PAC-10.

As for a case book play, some people go with what has been printed in text, for all to read across the country, and others go with a ruling that could be different a gym 5 minutes away.

I am with both of you.

I just dont understand how you would have a doulbe foul on this one.

Either a block or a charge. There is no way you have both.

And yes someone would have ate there whistle.

First rule is when you hear another whistle, find that person who made that call with eye contact. And if you have to discuss it discuss it quickly and make the right all.

I think in that situation a double foul is a bail out call.

I understand that, I just feel this is the easy way out. I haven't had the situation yet (knock on wood) and I think it's because it's something that's always in our pre-game. But, hey, I understand "it" happens.

It does happen, two whistles at the same time, but as you get older, more experienced you learn not to signal that call.

Like if i am lead and the C or T makes a call and I blow my whistle also.

I usally let them take the call just because they saw what was happening as it was coming at me.

I normally saw the end result.

???
Not sure were you are coming from, I thought we were both on the same page. ;) Yes, I agree with what you are saying and that's basically what we go over in pre-game.

I don't understand your double whistle with the C (if you are L), if you trust your C, just let him/her make or pass on the call.

yes we are both on the same page what i am saying is if we both blow our whistle I let them take the call.

if i am the L

Yup, yup!

I guess I'll jump in here before some of the more curmudgeonly people do...

The reason it's a double foul is because that exact play is listed in the casebook, and that is how we are told to call it. 4.19.7(c). If one official signals a block, and the other official signals a charge, it results in a double personal. It also says "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul". The basket counts, and you go to an AP throw-in. Try to explain to B's coach why you called a foul on the shooter A1, but the basket still counts, AND A gets the ball back as well because they happen to have the arrow.

Obviously, you and your partners want to avoid this. The best way to avoid it is to learn how to just hold up a fist, rather than making the signal quickly on the spot. We can get together and come out with a single call, we can make eye contact with our partner and either give it up or come in strong and say, "I'll take it!". These all need to be pre-gamed. But, the casebook tells us specifically what to do if there are conflicting signals. So, we can't just say we won't do it because we don't like it. What if I don't like when the warning horns for timeouts are? I don't get to do something different just because I don't think it's fair. So, if you don't want to call a double foul in this situation, don't call two different fouls.

Exactly. I think some people who disagreed on calling a double foul missed the part of the post where 2 officials signaled opposing calls without checking with each other first. If you are doing things properly and holding your call until you checked that you are both on the same page-fine no double foul. But if you have mistakenly both signaled-then you have to go with the double foul 'Blarge'.

-thanks to those who pointed out my faulty administration of the penalty. I was thinking of 4.19.8 (false double foul).

Yes you are right and my main concern is this, and this is something you learn and master with time.

And i understand what the case book says if you both signal, but you have to be observant enough to se your partners hand go up. Or hear that whistle and say delay that signal until you and your partner have made eye contact.

Normally one of you saw what happend first. Especially if the play is coming toward the L and the T calls it with the L.

I am not and never will go against what it says in the case book or rule book, I just gues i am talking more abt communication with your partners.

For the record, I didn't miss that both signaled. :)

how can you have a double foul here
 

this is not like 2 post players fighting for position and they each push and dislodge each other --

If you have a blocking foul on the defense HOW can you have a simultaneous charge???

If the offensive player commited a charge then how can you have a blocking foul since the defender HAD LEGAL guarding position (which is why it was a foul)??

This is a situation where you guys get together and Whoever's primary it was steps up and says "I got this" and the other one has to bow down and if a coach says "Well you had this......" that's when you reply "It was in his primary and he had a better angle on the play" and move on. Who cares if you both made different signals -- its either a block or a charge -- I dont see how these 2 could happen simultaneously ever.

Exactly.

Re: how can you have a double foul here
 

They can't happen simulatenously but the rulebook says its a doublefoul, well the casebook has a specific play on this stating its a double foul. But I do agree with you, a player either has a LGP or he doesn't. It cannot be both. if it happens in my game we are reporting both fouls, that's is the correct thing to do by rule.

Re: how can you have a double foul here
 

Philosophically, I absolutely agree with you. You should never have this situation happen, if both you and your partner use the proper mechanics.

Ok, here's the play: team A is down 2 with 5 sec. left. They have the arrow. A1 drives the lane, and there's a big collision. You signal charge, your partner signals block. You each look up and go, "oh, sh!t". You get together, figure out it was in your primary, and you go take the call. Charge on A1, B gets the ball OOB. Sounds like the right thing to do. Buuuuut...what if you get a smart coach who knows the rules? (Ok, I know, it doesn't happen often... ;) ) A's coach saw both your signals. He argues casebook play 4.19.7(c). You are, in effect, taking away his chance to tie the game with free throws, and win it with a last possesion, just because you don't like how the rules are written and interpreted. The officials screwed up by making two different calls, and the end result is spelled out in black and white. Whether or not we think it's fair doesn't count.

Another example: A1 is dribbling while being closely guarded. B1 tips the ball away and it is about to be picked up by B2 who has a clear breakaway. Your partner (the same rookie who made the blarge call last game...) blows his whistle because A's coach asks for a TO. You get together, realize it's an inadvertant whistle, and give the ball back to A. In addition, A now gets that TO if they still want it. So, B loses a breakaway AND A gets a TO they weren't initially entitled to because of an official's error. Not fair? Of course not, but that's the way the rules are written.

So, don't think of the play actually being both a block and a charge, but look at it as an official's error. The rules spell out what happens if they screw up. If we don't want to be embarrased by applying the casebook play, then we shouldn't be making two different signals.

Now you've done it. Poor Mr. Grammar Guy is once again shocked into unconsciousness by your double error! :)

Nor should we be screwing up by awarding FTs on a double foul because then we would have to be really embarrassed by using the correctable error rule. :D

Like I told Juulie before - listen to what I mean, not what I say. :p

Speaking of Juulie...
 

A start to avoid this mess is to read her article on the paid site about the pre-game.

You can pregame and prepare for this all you want. Eventually, it will even happen to great officials. Sometimes, you just can't hear each other's whistle, can't see each other's hands, and don't expect the other be covering the play.

I've had it happen twice. Once working with a newer official (but not a rookie) while I was trail covering a 1:1 backourt play. There was a collision and 2 bodies went down. Knowing that I would be the only one covering the play, I whistled and sold my call. While he <em>knew</em> to NOT cover that part of the floor it didn't stop him for calling it too. I never heard or saw him do so but he did.

Only out was the double foul since he signaled and the coaches saw him signal.


The other case what not realy the same situation but demonstrates how it could happen.

I'm lead and 2 guys are posting up hard. I blow my whistle, play stops, I do the prelims and start toward the table only to see that my partner was doing the same thing. I didn't know what he was doing since the foul was lead side and well below the blocks. I was going to yield to him anyway and just confirmed who he had it on. It was neither of the players I had involved in the play.

Turns out he had an independant foul near the top of the key such that our whistles sounded simultaneously and for the same duration such that neither of us heard the other. It was only after a moment of confusion that we realized what was going on...reported both fouls...went to AP.


I mention this just to point out that no matter what you prepare for, wierd things can and do still happen.

I've also had a blarge. Happened only once to me. It was my first game using pro rules. I was Lead. A drive started from the Trail's primary and the dribbler crashed with a secondary defender in my primary.

I had a block and signaled. My Trail had offensive and signaled. He came to me and basically said "I got it" and he sold the heck out of the offensive and that's what we went with.

Three things to say about the situation. First, I went back to the tape and watched the play about 50 times, and I honestly still couldn't say for sure if it was a block or charge. On a play that close, I would've preferred it if he had backed off and let me have it in my primary.

Second, by rule we did not handle the situation correctly. We should've charged both fouls and resumed with a jump ball. But since we were the only ones that knew that, I don't think it hurt anything.

Third, this blarge probably resulted from a difference in philosophy between pro and college officials (it was my first pro experience). The pro official will say that if the play originates in his primary, then he should have first crack at the play all the way to the basket. The NCAA official will probably say that since it was in the Lead's primary, and especially since the contact was with a secondary defender, the Lead should have first crack at the play.

Anyway, it happens, for whatever reason.

i thought
 

that pro and ncaa 3 man mechanics had the official whose primary the drive began from as the official who would have the play the whole way? am i wrong in that assumption?

It's a pretty mixed bag right now. It used to be -- and not very long ago, maybe 2 years -- that everybody in the college ranks would say that if the contact is in my primary, it's my call. Period. Doesn't matter where the drive started.

Now, there are some officials who hold to your assumption. If the play starts in my primary the call is mine, period, regardless of where the contact occurs.

There are also officials who say that if the drive starts in my primary, then the call is mine regardless of where the contact occurs -- unless the contact is with a secondary defender. In that case, the call goes to the "primary" official.

Pregame, pregame, pregame.

I think the last option works best...the trail often doesn't know where the 2nd defender under the bucket came from and only picks them up at the last second. Taking it all the way to the hoop in the primary defender works since the trail has seen the entire play.

Interesting Play!!
 

*i think that this call should be a charging if the defender's feet were still and if not then it should be a blocking foul...if that makes sense...*

[Edited by BiG_UNiT_32 on Aug 26th, 2005 at 02:34 PM]

Re: Interesting Play!!
 

Nope, it doesn't make any sense at all--rules wise. Whether the defender's feet were still or not isn't relevant in any way as to whether it's a block or a charge.

Re: Re: Interesting Play!!
 

Yep, sounds like you are trying to use the interpretation they use in the stands.