What is the proper procedure for dealing with a coach or team that delays after the second horn following a TO?

First horn - TO almost over
Second horn - TO over
Third horn - Delay warning? How long do you usually wait until giving a tech?

I'm using resumption of play procedure.

Edit: Door bell was ringing... hit enter way before I was done.

Anyways, I usually pre-game it and tell the coaches we're playing on the second horn. Haven't had any problems...knock on wood.

[Edited by tjones1 on Aug 10th, 2005 at 06:18 PM]

Ok but how long will you wait until taking action with a coach that delays?

I was willing to let the first two lines slide, but your third one got to me.

First horn: at 15 sec. on a 30-sec. TO
Second horn: at 45 sec. on a 60-sec. TO
There is no 3rd horn, and there are a lot of things that happen before a tech. First, I would give that team every opportunity to get out of the huddle. At the 1st horn, you and your partner should be walkin towards the huddle letting them know. At the 2nd horn, I might be sticking my ugly mug right in the middle of the huddle to remind them to get moving. Then, if they break the huddle and start moving towards getting into position to play, no problem. But, if after you have reminded them it's time to play, and you and your partner(s) get to your positions, and the other team is out of their huddle and ready to go, and they are still not breaking the huddle, then make eye contact with your partners, blow the whistle (even a little louder and longer than normal when resuming play normally), and go to the resuming play procedure. There's a whole section in the book about that. If it's team A's ball, and team B is one still in the huddle, give it to A and away you go. They'll get out quick enough. If it's A's ball, and they're still in the huddle, set the ball down and start your 5 sec. throw-in count (assuming, of course, it's just a standard throw-in). The T wouldn't come into play until after both teams have not broken the huddle after the second 5-sec. count after the warning for delay. If that happens, I'd love to see the tape of that game.

Remember, be slow and deliberate before getting to the point where you blow the whistle and set the ball down, or give it to the other team. Use every opportunity to clap your hands, say, "First horn!", or "Second horn!", whatever's necessary to make sure you're getting everyone's attention. And, once they start to break the huddle, that's enough for me. I have seen some guys go as far as to set the ball down just because the players are walking slow to the throw-in spot. Don't do that. Give the team every opportunity to break the huddle, and if you do need to get play moving without them, everyone in the gym should be well aware of what's happening.

No 3rd Horn
 

There is no 3rd horn. By rule, 1st horn is a warning horn, 2nd horn means the time out or intermission has expired. How you handle it is one of the game management decision your crew makes and depends on the specific situation to put the ball back in play.

Resuming play with a throw in. By rule, if it is a delay by the team entitled to the throw in, you put some air in your whistle, place the ball on the floor, and begin your five second count. If they don't get it in before the 5 seconds, it is a throw in violation and you give Team B the next throw in. If team B is delaying, you give the ball to Team A and proceed (most likely with an uncontested layup). If either team continues to delay, it is a technical foul.

If play is resumed by a FT, if the thrower is the one delaying, you place the ball on the line and begin the count. If the defense is the one delaying, you get the ball to the thrower and they attempt their throw. You now have a delayed violation for the defense not occupying the bottom 2 spaces and you have a substitute throw. If they continue to delay, it is a technical foul.

In practice, you don't let them delay. During regular season, we break up the huddle rather than just giving the "1st horn" warning. By break-up, I mean we go to their huddle and stay there until they break. If they delay, we get a coach's attention and make them break. If you need to do it, be sure the crew is consistant and it's better if it is early in the game rather than the last posession.:D

Mregor

Haven't you ever worked with a horny table crew? :p

Delay warning?

Nah...

At the second horn briskly walk to the sideline, go into the huddle and ask the coach if he wants another timeout. That will get his attention. When he says no tell him he needs to end the huddle now.

Always works.

Ever think that a table doesn't know there are only supposed to be two horns? I'm looking for input on how to handle a situation, not someone to come and critique how I presented it. You could have simply said I was wrong and corrected me, which I would have appreciated.

That's good stuff Dan. I'll be using that one next season. Thanks!

Z

Luke, I think he was just being coy, not disrespectful. But if he was being snotty, I'll get him here for you.

MM, I was willing to let the first line slide, but the second one got to me! You said:

"First horn: at 15 sec. on a 30-sec. TO
Second horn: at 45 sec. on a 60-sec. TO

Why is the second horn at 45 on a 60 sec TO? What the heck is that all about?!

The 5 extra seconds is to account for how long it takes to get up off the bench. :D

Re: No 3rd Horn
 

I know this is the way it reads in the book, but is it really the right thing to do? I have no problem putting the ball down if the throw-in team is delaying, that always seems to work just fine. But I have a hard time with giving a team an uncontested 2 points.

I like Dan's alternative of asking a delaying teams coach if he/she needs another timeout. Are there any other alternatives that work in this situation?


[Edited by BLydic on Aug 11th, 2005 at 08:40 AM]

I have not ever had a real problem with this, probably because most of the refs in our chapter does it the same, so there is consistancy from game to game.

At the first horn, both benches are warned and then the refs go to their positions. After the second horn and partner refs are in position, the administering ref counts silently to 5 and sounds his whistle long and loud is one or both of the teams has not broken huddle. If one or both teams still has not broken huddle, the five second throw-in count begins.

This is the procedure we follow as a chapter, and I have never had a problem breaking huddle.

I know most of us has a 20 second (if that) pre-game with the coaches and players. However, an extra sentence of letting them know (or reminding them) that we are playing on the second horn should take care of it.

Leave it to Mark. :p

Re: No 3rd Horn
 

Remember, after the ball has been placed at the disposal of the free thrower, he/she is not permitted to leave OR ENTER the free-throw semicircle without violating, until restrictions have ended. (9.1.7)

D'oh!

I was in a hurry to get done and out of work, so I got sloppy. You're right - it's at 40 for a 60-sec. TO. And Luke - I'm usually not snotty. Well, except for the occasional days the pollen count is real high...oh, never mind. Anyway, I wasn't sure if you were saying the 3rd horn was a result of you telling the table to do that, or the table was doing it on their own. But, you've probably gotten it by now - there is no 3rd horn. Now, if the table is the problem, and lord knows there's ALWAYS problem tables out there (no names mentioned <font color = yellow> Mark! </font>), then you just need to find time to have a talk with the table. Maybe a quick mention during a time out, or in between quarters if you need to have a real heart-to-heart. Ideally though, this should be done before the game. In NCAA-W, the entire crew is required to go over to the table; the R checks the book and talks to the scorekeeper, the U1 talks to the timer, and the U2 talks to the shot clock operator. It's basically having a pre-game with the rest of your crew, so everyone's on the same page.

Back to the delay. Give the team every opportunity to get out there and play. The idea of the resuming play procedure is to prevent a team from taking an unfair advantage, for example, trying to diagram a play that takes 83 seconds to draw up, during a 30 sec. TO, while the other team is standing out there twiddling their thumbs. It's a little like calling the 3 second violation - understand advantage/disadvantage, talk 'em out of it every chance you get, but if you need to call it, do it. I've had to blow the whistle and set the ball down probably once every two years, so it doesn't happen often. But when I've done it, everyone in the gym knows it needed to be done. The second horn had long since blown, we had been in the huddle clapping our hands, telling them to get moving, the team was all still in the huddle, the other team was all on the floor waiting, and my partners and I got to our positions, we all made eye contact, I made eye contact with the table to make sure they had put down their popcorn and were ready to go...anyway, get the picture? That way, when you blow the whistle extra long and put the ball down, the coach has absolutely no complaint that you have it in for his team and you're putting the ball in play too soon.

If working during the summer time, and I am putting the ball in play my partner will go to them tell them lets play.

If they dont move, i lay the ball down and start my count.

And the same during the regular season, if you do that just once you will get there attention.

Rule 2-12-4
The timer shall sound a warning signal 15 seconds before the expiration of an intermission or a 60-second charged time-out

Good, you passed my little test. ;)

Sigh...

Let's try this again. It's at 20 for a 30 sec. TO.

I need more caffine. That's what happens when I do more than just work at work. (I sure hope that last report I did doesn't have the same dumb errors.)

Had it happen once as a coach and it never happened again.

I had two teams slow to break in a girls JV game two years ago. I warned on the first slow to break timeout that I would be putting the ball in play the next time.

Guess what, the guy was slow again, the other team was ready and I set the ball down and started my 5 second count.

Girls ran onto the court and he grips but we didn't have any problems after that from either team the rest of the night!

But all this is still wrong because the original post says this is when the SECOND horn sounds. It should be the first horn. I'm not a caffeine addict, so I have a hard time understanding your excuse, but in general on this board, typos and other errors made in haste are not a big deal. I just don't want any young, impressionable refs to take away a mistaken understanding of the horn schedule.

juulie

There is no third horn. I do not have my rules books in front of me but both that NFHS and NCAA use the same resuming play procedure after a timeout. You can find the actual procedure in either rule book.

MTD, Sr.

My partner did this once, all we did was end up Tin the coach and then later tossing him for a second T.

Well, I went back and read what I originally posted, and NOW I finally understand what you meant. And, of course, you're right. I made a couple of mistakes, but was too busy focusing on the "being dilberate" issue. So, for all those young, impressionable refs out there, the procedure is as follows:

First horn: (Fed.) at 20 sec. on a 30-sec. timeout, (NCAA) at 15 sec. on a 30-sec. timeout, (Fed.) at 45 sec. on a 60-sec. timeout, (NCAA) 60 sec. on a 75-sec. timeout.

Second horn: (all) at 30 sec. on a 30-sec. timeout, (Fed.) 60 sec. on a 60-sec. timeout, (NCAA) 75 sec. on a 75-sec. timeout.

Third horn: when the table needs more popcorn.

As usual, my brain runs a little faster than I can type sometimes. And I was using the caffine as a crutch (or excuse?). So, from now on, can you please listen to what I meant, rather than what I said? ;)

Don't forget - for an NCAA 60 second timeout (they do exist), first horn is at 45 seconds, second horn is at 60 seconds.

Also, the NCAA caveat - if the team that was granted the timeout is ready early, the first horn is sounded when they come back on to the court. The second horn is sounded 15 seconds later. (Alternatively, you can have a timeout just for substitutions.)

The ultimate NCAA caveat - during a media timeout, the first and second horns are whenever the producer wants them.

All of the above are correct as well, but the 60-sec. timeout involves NCAA media games. I didn't include that to further confuse those young and impressionable refs. Unless some of these young, impressionable guys are already doing NCAA media games... :eek:

Anyone want to jump in with NBA timeout info?

I think we all agree that it's best to try and talk a coach out of this violation. I've had success grabbing the captain and telling him to remind his coach to honor those horns so we can keep the game moving. Sometimes a team will actually have a captain that can help us.

Some of us are. ;) (Unfortunately, from the other side of the table.)

Nope. Although Chuck had a post a few months back explaining it. It was the first time I was able to understand the NBA timeout procedure.

I knew you were young, but I didn't know you were impressionable. ;)

That's got to be a fun experience, even though you're not actually out on the floor.

They will be done when they are good and ready to be done.

What kind of info are you looking for? When the horn sounds? When they are shortened? When they occur?