Did a mens league game the other day and this is the first thing a player told me when he showed up to the game . I should have left at that point .
5 minutes into the game there is a foul on the free throw line extended (About 5-6 feet away from the key). My partner goes to the sideline to put the ball in after he called a foul (We only switch on shooting fouls or if we find ourselves on the same side too long) and the "ref" starts telling him the ball should be taken out on the baseline . My partner looks at me I shake my head and my partner attempts to give the ball to the player again and the "ref" says real loud that the ball should be taken out on the baseline . My partner looks a little confused so I blow my whistle step out towards my partner and tell him to put the ball in play from where he is . The "ref" gripes a little more but we play on .
At half time the "ref" proceeds to demonstrate physically where the ball is taken out on the endline when a foul or violation is committed and backs this up by saying "All fouls committed inside the arc and below the foul line are taken out on the endline" . I just smile and tell him that statement is incorrect and I have the rule book in my car and we can look at it after the game . My partner then proceeds to tell me that this guys refs a lot of his games (My partner is a Varsity coach as well as reffing in the off season) and is very knowledgable . I smile again and tell him that may be so but he is wrong here .
35 seconds left and the "refs" team (Team A) is up by 2 and is getting ready to inbound the ball after a basket by team B . Team A inbounds the ball and is fouled in the paint right away (In their backcourt) so the ball goes back to the endline . After a timeout the "ref" comes to take out the ball and says "I still retain the right to run the endline...right ?" I look at him really funny and say "sure you can run the baseline....but I will call you for the violation" . He then tells me that I am wrong and that he can run the baseline and I really don't know the rules . I will be honest and say that I was so shocked by this whole conversation I didn't even T him up or say anything for that matter .
After the game I asked him if he was serious about what he had said about running the baseline and he told me he was dead serious and if I ever wanted to becaome a varsity official like him I should read the rule book .

Long story but a true one.....I am still shocked bythis whole conversation and I can't wait to see him again so we can have some more insightful referee discussions...I think I have found my mentor !

I hate to say it, but I don't get it. What was the first thing he said?


I'm glad you didn't T him, b/c you gave him a smart*** answer. I realize you did it b/c you thought he was joking, but snappy answers often end up biting you on the butt.

Chuck's right, one I have no clue what he said or what thefour scariest words are. Two, you gave him a SA response.

And the four words were................?

I like your fishnets.

Did the player get fouled right before he caught it or did he with no doubt have possession of it when he got fouled?

It is always good to find a mentor. They are a great help.

He probably said, "I am a ref."

Way to stick to your guns, Weekend. I hope he apologizes when the time comes that he is proven wrong.

Come to think of it, construct your discussion to earn a pint out of it.

When the red eases from his face, tell him that if wishes to be a knowledgeable ref like you are, he should read the rule book. :D

Almost all of the games in which I had major problems were intramural games where one team was comprised entirely of staff memebers/referees.

Worst game ever was a flag football game pitting the refs (my co-workers) against the chemistry department (my peers and TA's). :rolleyes:

How can he be criticized for a smart answer when there are threads on this board that basically exchange smart answers for players and coaches?

The same way I would be criticized for telling off-color ethnic jokes in public, even tho I tell them in private with my buddies and we all laugh.

The smart-aleck stuff that gets posted here is not used on the court by 99.99% of officials. (The 0.01% is comprised entirely of Mark Padgett :) ). It's ok to joke about the stuff we'd like to say, or wish we'd said. But in real life, those comments generally make a situation worse rather than better; and that's what happened in the original post.

Just my opinion, as always.

oops....left out some vital info
 

Sorry about that.....the first thing he said to me when he came in the gym was "I am a ref"
I don't think it was a smart a$$ answer at all . This was a referee asking me something that should be common knowledge for a referee . I actually thought he was testing me....but he wasn't .
If this was a High School game I would have told the player that it was a spot throw in and he could not run the line .
I thought my answer to his question was fair and thinking back on it I would say the same thing again .

A few weeks ago I was working a weekend tournament that had some pretty good teams come into town. During one game, the head coach really started whining and begging for calls. Most of which was ignored until he said "I'm a ref". At that point, I told him that because he's a ref, he'll understand this call...WHACK!

He deserved it, he got it and the rest of the game was smooth like butter.

???
 

Chuck ,
You are comparing telling off color jokes to your buddies in private to saying "you can run the baseline but I will call a violation" ??
I understand what you are saying which is basically we should keep our favorite comebacks to ourselves ( and to this board) but I think you are wrong in this instance .

I did not say "That is a stupid freaking question and if you are actually a referee then you must be sleeping with the assignor to get any games at all because you obviously have no freaking idea what you are talking about" .
I would consider that a smart a$$ answer even if that is exactly what I was thinking !
Also keep in mind this was a Men's league game....

Speaking as a parrot...[/B][/QUOTE]

"SQUAAAAKKK! Polly wanna cracker! Pretty birdie pretty birdie...SQUAAAAAAAKKKKK!!"

http://www.e-isle.com/parrot/gallery...basketball.jpg

Re: ???
 

No. Read it again carefully. Go ahead. I'll wait. . . Hmmmmmm, hmmmmmmm, hmmmmmmmm.

Ok, so now that you've re-read it, you see that I was not comparing the jokes to your particular comment. I was comparing telling jokes with my buddies to compliling lists of smart*** comments in other threads on this forum. This forum is kind of like the locker room after a game. We can tell the "coach jokes" and compile our favorite smart*** comments, while we're here. But when we go out on the floor, those comments generally bite us in the butt; just as your comment bit you on the butt.


You are correct.


Well, one of us is. :) <font size = -4>(My vote is that it's you :D )</font>


I would consider that to be an invitation to get your butt kicked. That's not a smart** answer, that's an outright insult. A smart*** comment is generally trying to be funny at some level; but the humor is missed or not appreciated in a game situation.
This is irrelevant to my comments.

Go back and read the initial post carefully .I will wait hmmmmm....hmmmmmm.....hmmmmm
OK now that you have re-read it please tell me where it says my comment bit me in the butt ? Did you find that line yet ? I don't think you will as my comments had absolutely no bearing on my relationship with this player nor did it make the situation worse .

You used a poor analogy and I pointed that out in so many words . I understood what you were trying to say and I stated that right after I questioned your "comparison" . If you weren't so quick to try and make smarta$$ comebacks you would have realized that and we would not be having this discussion .
I have been on here for a while even though I don't post much I have read quite a few of your posts and I think you have a lot to offer in terms of advice and rules clarification but I think you are wrong in this situation as what I said was in line with what he was asking . Taking into cosideration he is a ref and it was a mens league game....these factors can not be ignored . I would have most likely T'd him if this was a High School kid saying this to me . I conduct myself differently when doing High School as opposed to Mens league games...so I do not think it is irrelavant .

Dan and Jurassic, I don't think Chuck asked for examples.

Sure. Right here: "He then tells me that I am wrong and that he can run the baseline and I really don't know the rules". You then went on to say that the only reason you didn't T him is that you were "shocked". That is called biting you in the butt. Player/coach makes a comment, ref makes a smart*** comment, player/coach responds with something that merits a T. That is called biting you in the butt. And that's what happened in your sitch.

Now, I totally understand that you originally thought that the player was kidding around. That doesn't justify your comment. If you give a straight answer the first time ("Afraid not. Spot throw-in here."), then either (a) you don't get the over-the-top reply or (b) you get the reply but with the knowledge that you didn't bring it on yourself.


One more thing we disagree on, I guess.

Again, I think the analogy was pretty good. But I can see that you're very eager not to be wrong, so I won't try to explain it again.

And there it is. Your comment elicited a response that was T-worthy. So what have we learned? Keep those comments on the forum and out of your game. (Which was the point of my analogy.)

When a coach says, "I'm a ref, too" I pray using the following four words in my head, "Lord give me strength!" I usually need it!

Tom, I don't think your post has anything to do with Chuck.

he does retain baseline privledges
 

If after a made basket the defending team fouls the team trying to throw in during the inbounds play and the throw in occurs at the baseline -- however if the offensive team has clear possesion and then the foul occurs its a regular spot throw-in -- it sounded like the fould happend during the throw in process so therefore "the ref" was right. They retain this right even if they call a timeout after the foul has been called.

Its essentially double Jeopardy if they lose the ability to run baseline because of a foul on the defensive team.

The only exception to the rule is if during the throwin an offensive player removes his Jersey while sitting on the bench AND your partner has a simultaneous double foul on the other end --- [end wiseass]

whaaat????
 

Deecee I disagree, team A inbounds the ball and is immediately fouled. I read that as the player on team A caught the ball and was fouled soon thereafter...meaning the throw in is over, and we have a spot throw in...IMHO

i said
 

once clear possesion has been made by the offensive player catching the ball then its a spot throw in --

what would you call during a throw in Defender B1 and A1 go for the ball -- as B1 reaches for the ball which A1 just grabbed B1 fouls A1 with a hold -- almost simultaneous to catching the ball but probably a split second after the catch was made -- both feet were on the ground so noone is even airborne. Cleary the offensive player -- by a hair has possesion in bounds -- do you:

a) go spot throw in on the baseline
b) give the offensive team the baseline

You're absolutely right. My post has to do with the quick trigger on those jokes that are better left unsaid (the reply to the joke too).

Re: he does retain baseline privledges
 

Deecee,
This is what I based my original response on...and in your second example, we have a spot throw in. If it isn't clearly before the throw in ends, then it is after the throw in ends..

You're absolutely right. My post has to do with the quick trigger on those jokes that are better left unsaid (the reply to the joke too). [/B][/QUOTE]

Well Tom, I can't speak for JR's reply but I suggest you contact the moderators & request they delete all the stuff you want left unsaid. I'm a big boy, it won't bother me at all if you do.

in my second reply
 

we dont have a spot throw in -- if i had my rulebook id cite the rule -- i think is 4.something article 9 or 8.

until the offense has established control of the ball inbounds any foul or (violation by the defense) where the resulting throw in would be the same baseline -- the offense retains the right to run the baseline.

Unless i am reading the rule wrong.

Deecee - I believe once the ball is touched inbounds by any player then the right to run the endline is over . I don't believe there is anything that says control....
The only way to retain the running of the endline is to have a violation (Kicked ball) or if the defense fouls before the ball is touched .


If I am wrong about the control (And as soon as I leave work I will check it out) then I just learned something and will consider this a good day

[Edited by WeekendRef on Aug 4th, 2005 at 04:51 PM]

Would it be more proper to say that if the throw-in ends because of a foul or violation, and the resulting throw-in will be on the endline, that the right to run is retained?

Thus if a kick ends the throw-in, the right is retained. If a foul ends the throw-in, the right is retained. If the throw-in ends via a touch, then a foul or violation occurs, the right is lost.

>>b/c you gave him a smart*** answer<<

Can you show me the smart*** answer, because I don't see it.

Agree...legal touch inbounds and the throwin is over...no baseline run for any infraction that follows.

Tom, to be quite honest, I really don't give a damn what you think.

found the wording in the rule book
 

page 50
7-5 art. 7 -- ...After a goal or awarded goal as in 7-4-3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line. A tem retains this privilege if the soring team commits a violation or common foul (before the bonus is in effect) and the ensuing throw-in spot would have been on the end line. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line.


I looked in the case book and it doesnt cover any specif case where the pass was made and at almost the same time as the offense gains possesion there is a foul on the defense.

After seeing the childish way Dan has to continue with this in another thread I didn't think neither one of you cared.

Re: i said
 

He doesn't have to have possession. The throw-in ends when the ball is legally touched inbounds. Once the throw-in ends, the right to run the endline is gone if a violation or foul occurs.

Whointhehell are you to tell Dan, or anyone for that matter, that they can't be childish?

I really <b>don't</b> damn well care what you think, Tom. It ain't your job to tell me what I can post- ever. If you have a problem with a post of mine, then e-mail a complaint to a moderator. That's their job- not your's. I don't remember seeing a notice appointing you the board censor.

Jurassic, I'm OK with everything you are saying.

Jurassic, I'm OK with everything you are saying. [/B][/QUOTE]Cool, Tom. I may not agree with your posts sometimes either, but I sureashell respect your right to make them.

Cool, Tom. I may not agree with your posts sometimes either, but I sureashell respect your right to make them. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with that too but we aren't talking about basketball posts. We are talking about comments that could offend someone. Anyway...the whole freedom of speech thing.

If I am reading this correctly "the ref" was right here too...Not any violation or foul that occurs inside the 3 point line and below the free-throw line extended consists of a throw in from the near point, but the ones inside the imaginary trapezoid (which is from the free throw line extended to the corner...will be on the baseline

[Edited by joseph2493 on Aug 5th, 2005 at 11:04 AM]

Oooooo, so close, but I'm afraid that's not the correct answer. Slappy, what will Joseph be taking home as a consolation prize?!?!

A dead parrot?

You can't return 'em.

But look at the plumage!! Lovely plumage, eh?

He's not dead, he's...stunned.

(...sniff) I can't believe the (...sniff...) love flowing around this place now. It's beautiful, man. My screen is so sparkling clean after wiping off my tears (...sniff, sniff...).

Ok, I'm over it. Now, there's already been discussions over the plays themselves, but there's one point that seemed kinda missing: where's Gen. Otis T. Whackenator? Why wasn't this guy given the T at the first hint of a complaint? Maybe my tolerance level is low compared to some for men's rec league games, but I think this guy used up all his "benefit of the doubt" points the second he made his comment. Any remarks made after that should've earned him a T. Even if this guy is more experienced than WeekendRef, there are 101 better ways to help him out rather than trying to show his "superiority" during the game. Let's even say Weekend was wrong on both plays. I still don't think that allows the "ref" to act the way he did. We wouldn't allow that behavior in a higher level game - whay would it be allowed here, ESPECIALLY from someone who should know better?

Otis, c'mout c'mout, whereever you are.

Seems like Chuck may have accidentally mis-quoted joseph. I think joseph's actual statement was:

"Not any violation or foul that occurs inside the 3 point line and below the free-throw line extended consists of a throw in from the near point, but the ones inside the imaginary trapezoid (which is from the free throw line extended to the corner...will be on the baseline"

The omission of the "Not" could be important. However, the use of the phrase "imaginary trapezoid" kinda blew me away and I have to take a nap now.

CG, I didn't misquote. Joseph went back and edited his post to correct the error. Is it ok if we leave the "parrot" posts in the thread anyway? :)

This parrot has ceased to be! This is an ex-parrot!!

Oh.

We're fresh out of parrots. How about a replacement?

:D

"CG, I didn't misquote. Joseph went back and edited his post to correct the error. Is it ok if we leave the "parrot" posts in the thread anyway?"

OK- my bad. By all means use parrots or whatever animals necessary to bring a bit of levity to the forum.

CG, just so you know (maybe it'll save you some typing), if you want to quote somebody else, you don't have to cut and paste or re-type it. Just click the "quote" icon at the bottom of the post you want to quote. A lot easier.

Kinda like this? Always wondered how you guys did that. There's no stopping me now! Thanks for the tip (not a foul tip), but a tip nonetheless.

As mick likes to say, "you own that one now". :)