I just came back from the IHSA Official's Convention.

Mary Struckoff, Editor of the Basketball Rulebook made a presentation highlighting the NF training program. The different programs seem really interesting and might be a really good tool for newer officials. For those that do not know Struckoff was ahead of the Official's Department in Illinois for several years before she moved to the National Federation.

One of the things she said and made very clear was that any state can do whatever they like. She made it very clear that Illinois and other states have different variations as to what specific mechanics are used or not. She even highlighted a particular state that in their 2 person mechanics (I will not use the state's name) puts the Trail official in the center of the court and the Lead directly under the basket. She also said that this particular state is the only one out of 49 states that uses this mechanic. She said the NF cannot do anything about it, nor wants to do anything about it. She said that NF mechanics are just a base, but if a state wants to use different coverage or signal mechanics, that is up to them.

I mainly say this because I have read many posts over the years and in the past few weeks where officials were mad because another state or official did not follow the NF mechanics to the letter. Mary Struckoff made it very clear that they know of many states having their own mechanics and said it was typical for states to have a variation.

Mary also talked about the NF Rules process and went into great detail as to how rules are changed. She stated that all Rules Editors in all sports go over the philosophy behind the rules so that a similar philosophy that might be in football might also be applied to volleyball as it might relate to safety or any other issues the NF thinks are important.

Peace

I heard that slap in Ohio out here in Arizona.:D

When I worked HS in Texas, we used Fed. rules (of course) but CCA mechanics. I don't know if they still do that.

The funny thing was that the chapter I started in handed out a Federation mechanic's book. I guess someone just ordered them mistakenly and they got handed out.

Within reason, mechanics should be used to communicate. If the communication is there then mission accomplished.

I know Im gonna get bashed for this, but im just a 2nd year guy....what advantage can possibly be gained from having both the lead and trail in the center of the court? In my (VERY limited) experience, I always feel that directly under the basket is the worst place to see things.

You are not the only one that feels that way. My point was to illustrate how different states do things. They are not confined to any mechanics set to the letter.

Peace

Yah, I see that in other fed sports..I was just wondering about a possible reasoning for that mechanic other than the "because we can" attitude.... thanks...

I am sure there is some rational for this mechanic. She did say this state feels this is the best coverage to see things on the court. Not completely sure how they came to that conclusion, but it is telling that only one state uses this mechanic. The point she was making is no matter how huge or minor the changes, any state can make them. So when you read guys complain that another state is not following the NF mechanics, they do not have to.

Peace

How did Ohio get dragged in to this

The post has more meaning than just passing along a little info.

We have a certain poster from Ohio that argued that the FED mechanics were set in stone a few weeks ago.;)

I did not post this to crap on any particular state. I simply posted this because over the years (every since I have posted on the internet) there are many posters that have been critical of other states or individuals that did not use perfect National Federation mechanics. I just wanted to make it clear that not only is the NF aware of this, it is condoned. I have been on the end of that criticism many times and I just wanted to pass along the information. Mary also pointed out that Illinois has some differences that might not be reflected in their new “certification” process. There was even talk from our delegates meeting to make those differences more public by posting them on the IHSA website.

Peace

But you did post it to crap on someone Rut.:D

WRONG!!!

I posted this to pass along information that I heard directly from the Editor of the National Federation Basketball Rulebook.

Peace

It has an editor?????

You know you and MTD went at it over lead going ball side, and that the FED said it is optional.

You wrote:

I mainly say this because I have read many posts over the years and in the past few weeks where officials were mad because another state or official did not follow the NF mechanics to the letter.

Couple this with who gave the talk you posted about, and nobody is going buy you are not taking a shot at MTD.

I'm not saying you are wrong to do it, but at least own up to it.:D

jrutledge...sorry..I didnt mean to blow this post up..I was just looking for a rationale...

You mean Rut didn't just post this for the general good out of the goodness of his heart? :rolleyes: Once a Rut, always a Rut.

Z

Unlike some people, I actually talk to officials outside of this forum. Every camp I attended this year had officials from other states in attendance. Some of the little things these officials did were based on some “regional” differences. Sorry BZ I did not post this because of MTD. I do not live my life based on what takes place on this forum. I just thought it was interesting and she mentioned how states could use their own mechanics as the basis for her selling the NF training classes. Struckoff mentioned that the content in the NF classes might not apply to a particular state in total. If I am not mistaken, she works for the NF, not anyone else here.

Peace

Z,

Please turn the page please. It is time for you to grow up and realize that everyone is not impressed with what you say on this board. You do not know me. You have never met me. You have never worked with me and likely never will. You have no idea what my agenda is or what it will ever be. I do more for officiating than probably most here in all the sports I work. I do not just come to this place and talk officiating. I actually work in my community to make officiating better. For you to try to come here and question my motives when you do not even know me is not only beneath you, it just reveals more about your contributions to officiating than anything else. It is really time for you to turn the page and put the past in the past. What ever I have done to you I am truly sorry. But at some point you have to realize that what I do is not about you. Sorry, it is not.

Peace

Please, you are on this forum enough to know MTD mentions Ms. Struckhoff every chance he gets.

She makes comments on an issue you and MTD disagreed on, she happens to side with you, and we are to believe it's all innocent info sharing?

I was born in the day time, but it was not yesterday.;)

It is rather obvious that I come here quite often. If you also notice I do not post here everyday, nor do I wish to. Just this month alone I have been out of town 3 times for officiating related reasons. I also do not read every thread, nor do I follow what one person says like a hawk either. I do remember the conversation I had with MTD, but I did not post this with him in mind. Until you mentioned the conversation, I was not thinking of MTD at all.

I also do not care if he references Struckoff on a regular basis. Mary Struckoff is from Illinois and went to the same college I attended (not at the same time) and worked in the IHSA office as the head of the Official's Department. If you talk to many Illinois Officials and our current system, Mary's name comes up all the time. Maybe MTD talks about her a lot, but not as much as we do here. For the record Mary Struckoff was partly responsible for many changes in our state and how officials issues (she really gets a bad wrap as well). So for someone that is not around this state, might not realize this. Anytime the NF changes something, some officials like to rip her personally for those changes. So if MTD talks about Mary a lot, it definitely is not as much as her name is thrown around in my state. Maybe you pay more attention to MTD's posts than I do.

I also work football and baseball. I can tell you in football alone there are many things we do in Illinois that are not at all specific to the NF mechanics. Also in baseball there are a couple of position changes that are not reflected in the NF mechanics either. Mary’s comments were not geared towards any specific sport. Mary did look at Dave Gannaway when she made these comments when she referenced the fact that “I know Illinois does some things differently from the NF.” Gannaway currently sits on the Football Committee for the NF and holds the position that Struckoff left with the IHSA (Head of the IHSA Official’s Department).

Peace

Did somebody secede, and I didn't hear about it? :D

Good grief, don't you guys have anything better to do than climb up Rut's tailpipe? Get a life...

I am going to attempt to address this topic the best I can without getting personal, etc. I assume the one state that Ms. Struckoff is referencing in North Dakota(if it is not ND then this is just FYI)--only because of the "center in the trail position" reference in the original post. ND does encourage the trail official to come up the center of the floor and then continue to "work the middle" of the floor as the trail. However, the center DOES NOT work directly under the basket as the original post states. Instead the lead has responsibility for the ball below the free throw line extended--we are encouraged to stay as wide as the ball on ball side and close with the ball to the paint. We then go ball side with the ball or our players who are in a competitive match-up---basically the same coverage for the lead in the women's NCAA game. The trail works the "center area" of the floor and moves to get the best possible angle for any play.

In essence it's the women's college mechanic (emphasis on active lead) with the trail moving to the center area of the floor to get the angles that the T or C would get. Is this the best mechanic? No, but it's not the worst either. Those of us on this board that are veteran's have been through numerous changes in mechanics with the Federation and CCA--all have been attempts to improve, but not all have been successful.

I don't know how long we'll keep it or how successful it's been, but notice that I did use the word "encourage" a couple of times above. I did this because even though our state office wants this mechanic used, they also realize the most important aspect of officiating mechanics is that both or all (3-whistle)use the same mechanics. So whether it is NF, CCA, or ND modified--as long the officating team is on the same page we are within compliance with our state.

Since we are a small state (650,000) people I thought I would share a couple of other items.
--We have been using a 3-point line in our highest division since the 1982-83 (no typo 82-83) season.
--We have been using a shot clock in our boys and girls game for the last six years (highest division).
--We have used 3-whistle coverage in our state and regional tournaments for the last 4 years.

The NF has not accepted all of these changes with open arms and has cost our state a voice with the NF rules committee.

Training to be proctologists, maybe? :D

Okay, that would be an acceptable excuse...

I'm guessing you mean that the Lead does not work directly under the basket?

In any case, if you and Rut are both reporting things correctly, then Ms. Struckoff was not talking about ND, since Rut's post clearly states that she said the Lead worked in the middle of the lane.

This comment interests me quite a bit. I'm not sure what you mean by "cost our state a voice" on the rules committee. The only change that you mention that has NOT been adopted by the FED is the shot clock. MA also uses a shot clock. There's two things to say about this.

1) I've been told by our state athletic association that the FED is not upset about us using a shot clock. So if you've lost your "voice" on the committee, could there be some other reason for it?

2) I was told by this same person (speaker at our board banquet last year) that every state has a vote on the rules committee on a rotating basis. No state is excluded from sitting on the committee. However, the FED will bar states from chairing the committee if they are out of line in certain ways. (The reason MA is ineligible to chair the committee is that we play halves instead of quarters.) So can you explain what you mean by "cost our state a voice" on the committee?

I'm interested to hear how these things work. Thanks

Chuck,

Thanks for the correction regarding the lead--you are correct--typo on my part. I've been doing this (officating)for 25 years so I might be a little dated on the NF rules committee issue. But, as I have understood it from the past the NF will allow states to do something (3 pt line, six fouls, shot clock, etc.) on a trial basis without losing representation--then if the NF adapts it goes into their rules, etc. However, if they don't and your state continues you lose some input with the NF (I thought it was with the rules committee). The reason this has stuck in my head was because of how long our state has been using the 3 point line--and there was some issues with the NF in the late 80s. If I have clouded the issue, I apologize I just wanted to share some background about our state.

I assumed that Ms. Struckoff was referncing ND and either she wasn't completely aware of what we were doing, or Jeff misinterpreted what she said about the lead. I can't imaging any state putting the lead directly in the middle of the lane. Absolutely nothing is gained from this vantage point in 2 or 3 whistle coverage.

Thanks for taking an interest.

Where is this posting at (regarding Ohio)!!

Actually Chuck that was Mary's references not mine. Texas I know in football does not use NF Rules. Texas football uses NCAA Rules and Mechanics across the board. I believe because of Texas' stance on football, they do not have anyone that represents Texas with the NF at any level or sport. I know Pennsylvania also uses NCAA rules for football as well, but I think they have some representatives on some level. I do not know all the details but she did reference Texas in her presentation and I was assuming that that was the only state that was not included with the NF.

Peace

Mary did reference North Dakota in her presentation. But I did not misrepresent anything she said. Her reference was brief and she did not go into great detail about what the ND does or does not do. She was not speaking to a basketball only crowd. She was speaking to the Official's Delegates from all sports and talking in general and made a very brief statement about ND to illustrate that a state can use their own mechanics. She also said that other states questioned ND's position but your state felt what they were doing was specific. Her exact words were "One out of 49 states uses this mechanic." No one asked her for any details beyond that because it did not matter. She was basically telling the delegates that in the NF training class there would be some minor differences as it related to Illinois and other states. Now there must be a reason you knew I was talking about North Dakota, because until her presentation I did not realize your state or any state had a mechanic like that. Your response was the very reason I did not want to call out your state. Since you seemed to know who she was referring to, I wanted to clarify what she stated.

Peace

Jeff,

No problem hi-liting ND. Unfortuneatley she was just plain wrong in her reference to the "lead" in our mechanic. It's too bad she wasn't clear with her information, especially considering her audience--rural states like ours have a tough enough time with the perception of being "country bumpkins".

I thought I would stop in and say hello. I left Ohio for Florida on June 24th to officiate in AAU and YBOA national basketball tournaments. I will not return home until late afternoon August 01st. It appears that I will have a lot of posting to do when I get home. It sounds like this thread will be a fun one.

Ciao guys.

MTD, Sr.

I think you are taking it to another level. She just was making a very small point about mechanics differences and how acceptable those differences are in the NF's eyes. I would not have expected her to go into detail about this topic because there were soccer, football, volleyball, baseball, track and field, cross country and gymnastics officials in the room. Anyone not working basketball would probably not know what she was talking about or what a "lead official" is in the first place. She just wanted to say that states can do what they like. She probably used one of the most glaring philosophies differences (she was showing the basketball class) and I no one asked her a follow-up about her reference or your state.

BTW, a lot of people that are from the Chicagoland area think anyone below I-80 are "country bumpkins" too. So it does not matter what state you live in, people are going to stereotype certain things about an area or state anyway. She did not make the point to belittle your state or the people. She was only making a small point.

Peace

No apology necessary. I just think the whole thing is pretty interesting. I know it's not shrouded in mystery or anything, but it just seems like not a whole lot people really know how the Rules Committee actually works or why (and how) certain states are "punished".

I appreciate the info.

Quick question:

Does Mary Struckoff know about this thread and if so, how many think that she rolls her eyes when reading it? :D

Pokemon - Jamaican proctologist. :p

Rut,

The whole point of my response in the first place was that it appeared that Ms. Struckoff was referencing ND. Your post states that she was making a point that states can do whatever they want and used ND as an example. However, that example was incorrect in how she presented it---you heard it and apparently others did as well--and you shared it with everyone on this forum. I just decided to take the time to share and go into a little detail. As a representative of the NF she should realize the potential dangers or shortfalls of misrepresenting the facts.

OK.

Peace

I'm betting there was a helluva a party in Ohio on June 25th! :D

It doesn't matter either way, Jugs. MTD will immediately email her and tell her that she's wrong. :P

Raquel Welch posts on this forum?!?! Cool! Are Bill Cosby and Harvey Keitel lurking somewhere, too?

I am going to make an educated assumption that she does not read threads on this basketball forum because based on some of the mis-information that is posted on the NFHS Discussion Forums she does not read the threads there either.

MTD, Sr.

Surely your nickname isn't Mother Tucker? :D

I wonder how many of these young whippersnappers know what you're talking about? (Um, besides me, that is.)

There's a joke to be made here, but it's just too easy.:D

There's a glaring logical fallacy in there somewhere. ;)

Perhaps she should. I know she must be very busy, but it just might shed some light on some of the issues and she could correct the "mis-information". Just a thought.

JRut,

Any other highlights that you could share with us from the convention? I wasn't able to make it this year. Thanks

TJ,

I am not sure what you want to know. I mainly attended the Delegate's meeting and a couple of sessions outside of those meetings. The media session was interesting, but it was just a dialog with media members and officials and why each thinks the other is stupid. :D

I am not purposely trying to be short with you, there was just so much going on there was not just a couple of things that I can point to as a highlight. I can say that Dave Gannaway does not seem like he is completely satisfied with out current promotion system and was looking for ideas to change it. There was also talk about an evaluation program and how to implement such a program or whether to have one at all.

Other than all that the conference is to give officials from all over the state the opportunity to share ideas or to understand if the same issues apply all over the place.

Peace

JRut,

Sorry for such an open eneded question.

Hmmmm, any ideas thrown around for a new promotion system?

The only thing that was seriously kicked around was using the NF Training courses as an addition to the promotion process. There were suggestions from groups, but those were not discussed to the entire body. Suggestions were discussed in individual groups and given to the IHSA for possible review later with the Official's Advisory committee. So I am not sure what other officials were seriously talking about in that meeting. I suggested personally that we take emphasis off of the Part 2 Exam as an end all be all requirement and put more emphasis on other things to help someone get promoted. We will see if anyone cares about our groups suggestion.

Peace