Hi everyone been away from the game since Febuary and just did a varsity team camp...one of the things I want to work on for the up coming season is to do a better job of reffing the screens and the defenses that have to go through them...as I tried to pay attention to more of the off ball I still was struggling with the screens and was wondering is there a trick to slowing down the action in the paint>?

Yes clover,

Talk to them, as they are posting up, tell them to clean it up.

If you see one that is set real close to illegal screen, then talk to them tell them to set the solid.

That is what I do, the first qtr is the qtr the get them to play the game clean. If in your eyes they are still setting them not clean in the second qtr, i start calling them, if they arenot listening to me talking to them

I was working this shooout last weekend, I had to call 3 seconds on this one kid 4 times, i am on the base line(get out of there) (get out of there) then i call it.

The coach and I are laughing abt after the game and trying to explain to him that when he is on offense and the ref says get out he might want to look at where he is.

But I think you can stop all of that by just talking to them. And then if it does not work start calling those illegal picks.

It's all about positioning and not taking referee the defense literally.

Some officials focus on the defensive player and lose sight of the ball and other players.

Work on seeing through the players by not focusing on the match up as much as watching through it. This will allow you to see the screen coming when you are on ball.

When you are off ball get as many players as you can in your visual field, and work at picking up the cutters and the screeners. Get in position to see the whole play.

Remember these 3 things:

1- All screens must be short of contact.

2- Time and distance are always relevant. If the screen is from behind, allow the defender one step without contact. When the defender is moving, you may need to allow up to two steps.

3- The screener must be stationary, unless both are moving in the same direction.If the screener steps into the defender or extends his arms, hip or legs into him, you have a foul.

One more thing I think it's important to keep in mind. No screen is illegal until there's contact. It's not quite true that anyone can do anything, but very nearly. If the screen-ee dodges and avoids contact, then the screen wasn't illegal, no matter if it was moving or leaning or doing jumping jacks.

The corollary is that even the most incidental contact is illegal if it's a screener that moves into a screen-ee. Call a ticky-tack screen or two, off ball, in the first quarter, and you won't have any thing to worry about the rest of the game.

My general philosophy
 

Call the obvious violations of the rules, not just the bad screens attempts.

As a general philosophy I like to have the player being screened earn the call. If they just kind of give up on the position, then I tend to not call it. If the screener comes out and really hits them or they are really knocked off stride, I try my best to call those all day. But I will not call a foul if the kid just saw a screener and stopped running or did not continue in the same direction. I understand the rule talks about what to do when there is contact, but the rule still refers to incidental contact and not calling something just because there is contact.

Peace

Dave Libbey once described officiating at two games: on-ball and off-ball. You want to see the consequences of the ball while officiating a play on-ball. While officiating off-ball call contact. Period.
Another official mentioned the term "ref the defense" and said it was wrong. We should ref the matchup. Most of the time you will only have to look at two matchups (4 players) max at the C. Once it is more then that a rotation should occur.
Screening is one call that we have the luxury of being slow on. See what happens and then call it or no-call it. Often officials see a little bit of contact and pass on it. If Reggie Miller's teammates could set illegal screens with a tiny bit of contact Reggie would have a field day. Shooters only need an additional split second to get their shot off so being illegal the smallest little bit will help the shooter. If the player screened is contacted illegally and slowed one step it will make all the difference in the world for a shooter or a player that cuts to the basket once the defensive player arrives late as a result of the illegal screen. Look for players taking the contact to the person they wish to screen and look for elbows and knees coming out for ineffective screens.
In time it will come much easier. I think one thing the original poster pointed out alluded to watching the ball. This could be a bigger problem than calling illegal screens.

thanks
 

I have read your posts 3 times and printed it for future reference...alot of things to think about and implement... zebra, you hit the mark with me, I tend to tunnel vision when i'm trail...will open up some to keep my primary in focus...

Please keep in mind that there are quite a few differences between 3-person and 2-person, and between the levels where 2-person is worked, nd the levels where 3-person is worked. In two person, you don't have the luxury of watching only two match-ups, at least not very often. I'd say ref the defense is very good advice at any level that takes 2-person. As players move around the floor, you need to know that the screen was set, or that there was legal guarding position before contact. In order to do that, you need to focus more on the defense. It sounds like the statement that "ref the defense" is wrong came at a 3-person camp, which would probably include a higher level of play, and obviously a different style of reffing.

I never said it was wrong, I said it can cause an official to lose sight of everything else if taking too literally.

Find the defense or be aware of the defense are better terms, IMO.

Reguardless of level or system the most important factors are:

Positioning and being able to see through the play. The NBA philosophy...but it is the same at all levels...is open vs closed looks. Straightlined and getting in a stack discribe the closed look very well. Two hands up about 6 inches apart make for a great demonstration. Seeing both hands and space between is what you want, seeing the back of one hand is not.

Finding the defense and being aware of the ball and or pivot foot. This is where referee the defense taken literally causes problems. It is very easy to find the defender and lock on.

Focus through the match up on ball. After you find LGP and ball/pivot, position to see through the play and open up your visual field. It is not that hard to referee off ball if there is not great pressure on the ball. This will help with those high post screens behind the ball and the screen to free up the ball.

The same goes for off ball. Position to see as many players with an open look as possible. Be aware of the cutters and the screeners, and find the defenders in their path.

[Edited by blindzebra on Jul 2nd, 2005 at 04:10 PM]

I have never taken the term "Referee the defense" as to mean not to ever watch the offense. The term really is only to tell officials to understand that where the defense is so that you do not incorrectly call fouls and possible violations on the defense. If you are not too close to the play, you can see what both are doing. What happens to many officials, they watch the offense the entire time and call blocking calls on defensive players when they were in LGP.

If you referee the defense you can recognize what the defense is doing and understand what the offense will have to do to beat the defense. An offense plays different when they are up against a zone defense or man to man defense.

When you understand that it helps you know what might possibly happen. You can anticipate much more easily and not get caught completely off guard.

Peace

I never said you said it was wrong!

Blindzebra, I think I was the one she was saying was wrong. You did a fine job of describing how what I said applies to officiating two or three man on any level.

I never said you said it was wrong!

You replied to tomegun's post and he mentioned it.

I was just clearing that up and then I went on to explain that level and system had little to do with how you should see the play.

In fact the open look philosophy is even more important with only two officials, because there is more overlap, i.e. secondary areas, to get help from a partner in three whistle.

I find that many of the 3 whistle mechanics and philosophies adapt very well into 2 whistle. We do very little 3 whistle below the college level here in Arizona, so I'm not speaking from a predominately 3 whistle position.

[Edited by blindzebra on Jul 4th, 2005 at 01:25 AM]

Along the lines of this topic, what about "leaners" (those players that have legal position for a screen, but the defender goes around, so the screener leans to the side to make his position wider)?

How much leeway do you give to "leaners", or is any contact enough to warrant a foul call?

you answered it yourself, a screener who had a legal screnning position. (Key Word (HAD)).

If there is enought contact to where the screener gained an advantage if there was contact then it is a block all the way.

does that help you at all let me know?

Jim this is a good question. the screener can go into what is called a "firm up" position, which watching it you have to be aware of because it looks like he is leaning but he is staying within the base of his body.

A "firm up" position is when a kid is setting up for a screen and he knows he is not going to get hit square in the chest, he knows he is going to get hit just slightly off the center of it so he will move pretty much just his upper body over to one side of his base putting all his weight on one leg, but still being in an upright position.

In this case though you do have to watch if he gets out of his base or throws a chicken wing or sticks a knee out, etc.
Be very careful in calling this an illegal screen.

Who told you that one? If you move your upper body over to one side so that the contact was outside of the normal vertical plane of the screener, then it's an illegal screen. Even in the .......wait for it......SEC.

NFHS rule 10-6-1--"A player shall not .....impede the progress of an opponent by....bending the body into other than a <b>normal position</b>". Leaning your torso sideways to contact an opponent outside of your vertical plane isn't a "normal position".

"Firm up position"?

Firm base is OK. Leaning the torso above a firm base isn't.

Oooh, I love it when you talk dirty. :eek:

I don't really want to get into a microcosim-type argument over what would be legal and what wouldn't be (such as, just how far out can the elbows be until it's illegal - 1", 3 1/2"? Or how far can a player lean until it's illegal?) I guess that's where being aware of the defense helps - if you know the defensive player had LGP, that player can move to maintain that position, and we have to decide who got to that point of contact first. I know when I'm moving fast (ok, well fast for me...) I know I'm not straight up, but I'm leaning a little in the direction I'm going. So it comes down to our judgement whether the defense is trying to take a little extra space by leaning, especially if the LGP is in a standing position.

JR this is totally legal and I this came straight out of the mouth of an SEC official, but he used it in the scenario of a charge.

I am saying in this position you keep your vertical plane because in almost all cases when you set up for a screen or take a charge your legs are always a little further apart than your shoulders and that determines your vertical base or space.

On top of that think of it like a charge if the kid is fixing to take a hit he is aloud to move to absorb emminent contact, hence he will firm up or slightly move to take the hit in the torso.

Why should a kid not be aloud to "firm up" in the case of a screen.

I think I did not explain a "firm up" position well enough but I don't know how to explain you just have to see it. That is how I came to understand what it was.

"Firm up" is a phrase I first heard from an NBA ref. Since the SEC is assigned by Mr. Guthrie, and he implements a lot of NBA philosophies at his camps, I would not be surprised if the SEC officials allow a player to shift their weight to one side (but not outside) of their vertical plane. This is -- I think -- what is meant by "firming up".

Um, do believe that you're confusing guarding and screening there, M&M, ol' buddy. You can be moving when guarding somebody and still have LGP. To set a legal screen, y'all better be stationary unless the screener and the screenee are both moving in the same path and direction. On a screen, you're looking for contact outside the normal position of the torso. Leaning sideways ain't a "normal" position.

Legal Guarding Position and Legal Screening Position are completely different animals with completely different criteria.

Mr.Elias I could not have used less words to sum it up better. Thank you. I had no clue how to explain it.

Yup, and he'd better not be have moved outside the normal vertical plane that he was in when he first set the screen. If contact did occur outside of the initial vertical plane of the screener,then it's an illegal screen even though the contact may still be on the outer edge of the torso. Iow, you're taking your chances if you lean.

"Firm up" is just setting yourself solidly to take the screening contact, no matter how you do it.

You know, you're right. As I re-read things, I was confusing the two. And I knew that. I just need more sleep. I've been tossin' and turnin' a lot since my Cubbies waited to have their June Swoon until July. But, that's for another thread. In this case, I'm leanin' towards leanin' not bein' legal.

Ugh.

Chest tightening . . .

Can't breathe . . .

Should I take this, or should I wait for Gendarme Grammaire?

Foul.

Coaches need to teach screens better. It is a passive act and contact is not needed to make the screen effective.

Got to get the players that make themselves "bigger" to assure contact.

Should I take this, or should I wait for Gendarme Grammaire? [/B][/QUOTE]Shouldn't that be <I>M. Gendarme de Grammaire</i>?

But can he "aloud" in someone's face, within two or three inches?

Sorry, I try not to be the Madchen der Grammatische, but this error was too funny to pass by.

I've heard this statement a lot form coaches: " S/He put the elbows out on the screen and almost hit my kid!! That's a foul!"

An illegal motion isn't always a foul. In cases like this, I have stated to the coach that since no contact was made, there is no foul to call. I also make a point to warn the offending playr to keep arms/elbows down. If it happens again, make sure there is contact first, then get the illegal screen. I always report it as a block to the table, and I guess that's right because no evaluator has ever told me to change.

The "elbows out" thing on screens is interesting. Obviously, no player wants to run into an elbow. The unfortunate thing is that unless there is contact, I can't call a foul. I wish that coaches wouldn't teach their players to set screens this way, but as the old saying goes, "if horses were wishes, beggars would ride."

Shouldn't that be <I>M. Gendarme de Grammaire</i>? [/B][/QUOTE]

Non. C'est Chuck, si qu'il est Mme. Gendarme de Grammaire.

Well, blocking is defined as "illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball."

If an arm, shoulder, leg, hip, etc. is extended into an opponent's path, and there's a foul, I call it a block. In fact, most illegal screens that I've seen either are blocks or are reported as such.