I have a question - I have been officiating 6 years, and never had anything I was able to call for this, which I considered to be well outside the bounds of the game, but the rules don't seem to support this.

Several weeks ago, at a tournament, another official asked why we didn't call anything on this one girl who was doing it, and I said I didn't know of anything to call - Soccer has a rule for it - it's called "Deliberate Verbal Tactics", and is a yellow card (similar to a technical foul without free throws, to compare). He said it is unsportsmanlike conduct, and that I should warn her about it, and then T her up for U.C. if she continued.

I'm not talking about when a person says "BALL", even loudly, even 1-2 times, or something like it... (I got ball, ball's dead, dead, or something similar) in an attempt to communicate with teammates. I'm talking when the defensive girl (which guys never do this) gets inches away from the girl who has the ball, and starts yelling "BALL" in her face repeatedly and extremely loudly. I agree with the idea that this is unsportsmanlike - it is similar in effect, although more aggressive, than face guarding, which is defined in the rules as illegal.

My partner for several different games had no problem with this. My partner today had a problem with it, saying I was taking away their ability to play defense, and he couldn't work with someone who was that "nit-picky" about the rules.

I'm looking to see what #1) the rules say in regards to this, and #2) general opinions on how to handle it. I already know most guys won't call it - that's not an issue. I also know it isn't soccer, so the above mentioned rule doesn't apply. I'm looking to see if the person who told me this is reasonable in their interpretation, as well as having rule support for it.

Thanks in advance!

David, if <b>you</b> think that it's an unsporting act, then <b>you</b> can call a T for it. it's that simple. It's your judgement, and FED rule 10-3-7 will give you rules backing.

Having said that, I think that this particular call is one you should run by your assignor/evaluator/rules interpreter and see what they think about it. I would imagine that they want all of their guys to call this one uniformly, and you don't want to end up being "that guy" by calling it differently than everyone else. Jmo.

Jur I agree
 

You hear it all the time in the girls game.

But unless you are going to call it everytime, dont start now.

And unless your association is going to have all of there officials call it i would not even waste your time.

But Drink; if you think it is unsportsmanlike call a T but be prepared to hear it. :)

Re: Jur I agree
 

[QUOTE}

But Drink; if you think it is unsportsmanlike call a T but be prepared to hear it. :)

[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I never have been one to shy away from a call I believe in, regardless of whether it is popular or not. I don't believe anyone should base their calls on what makes people happy - the rules don't cover that. I figure I try to cover my bases by letting the players know clearly, then the coach, then calling it if it continues.

It annoys me, but I've yet to call it.

If you want to stop it, possibly say somthing in the pregame.

yes talking abt it at pregame would prob be the best way to deal with it.

but it drives me crazy also.

good topic

Since it isn't specifically mentioned in 10-3-7, i'm assuming it falls under the "inclueds, but is not limited to, the following..." as one of the "not limited to..." ones...

Based on that, considering it face guarding is incorrect, however, because it specifically states the use of hands.

Yes, that's where the T fall falls under- and nope, it ain't faceguarding. It's just an unsporting act <b>in your opinion</b>. Rule 10-3-7 is written vaguely on purpose. You couldn't possibly list every unsporting act that might come up during a game. And if you did, I'm sure the players and coachs would quickly figger out some new ones. :D As I said, if an official thinks an act is unsporting, then it's unsporting. Others may disagree with your judgement as to what is an unsporting act actually is though. That's why I recommend running this one by whoever is next in line up the food chain.

It doesn't bother me and I'd never give a T in this instance. I've heard boys games where they yell "tight, tight, tight" instead. They are just communicating to their teammates that the dribbler has lost the dribble and if everyone tightens up, they might get a 5-second call. I don't know why that would be considered unsportsmanlike.

Z

Well, i'm not referring to the ones where the player is communicating simple information for their teammates. I'm referring to screaming that in the offensive player's face from 2-3 inches away, to the point that there are little flecks of spit coming off and possibly even hitting the offensive player, and the yelling can be heard a long distance away - well beyond the distance of their teammates. It isn't in the interest of passing information, or that is just a secondary benefit - they're trying to intimidate the offensive player by screaming in their face. If it is just communication, i have no problem with it whatsoever.

You can call it if you like and you can attempt to justify it if you like.

However, have you ever seen anyone else call it?

It's accepted as being part of the game. The best thing you can do is to simply ignore it.

This is annoying, but annoying isn't a T. If the opposing team is REALLY getting miffed about it and retaliating, I might try to talk to the offending player and ask them to tone it down in the spirit of sportsmanship, but besides that everyone is going to have to listen to it.

Just don't let it annoy you into rooting for the other team. ;)

This used to bother me and I was talking about it with a good friend, who said "This is basketball, not golf." Since then, for some reason, it doesn't bother me as much.

This IS communication. That is why they do it. It continuously informs their teammates about the location of the ball and the fact that you've got it covered. You may not like it but there is nothing illegal about it.

If your going to call that, you might as well call a T whenever any opponent says a word that migth annoy or distract the other team.

Like lotto said, this is not Golf.

Camron: he's not necessarily talking about the screamer doing it to the person with the ball, but a defender screaming in someone's face in the post, perhaps, away from the ball.

One thing you can do is give the screamer very little leeway on contact. They aren't playing defense or the ball, and any contact would by definition be less incidental that it ordinarily would had they been in a more proper guarding position.

I've never seen a player do it who wasn't guarding the ball.

What other things do players do that causes you to call a foul when it really isn't a foul?

Fellas, you tread on dangerous ground when you start calling fouls and T's because a player is doing something that annoys you.

I can't find any solid reason to call it. You you have one the let me know. BTW, the "Ball,Ball,Ball" yelling is only annoying in an empty gym. I have never had a problem when there was 1000 people in the gym.

2 things...

1) Never having seen anyone call something doesn't mean that it isn't a legitimate call. Taken the other way, I have seen a number of refs call over the back, and even signal it at a varsity game (some kind of batman signal). Just because a call is made, doesn't mean it is right... just because a call doesn't get made, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've worked with a number of officials who absolutely refuse to call certain things... even though the rule says you have to.

2) If the team isn't aware of where the ball is by looking, something's wrong. Another case would be the person inbounding the ball, with a player screaming in their face (and a case where the 3 foot rule doesn't apply, such as having a long way they could back up). Everyone knows where the ball is and who's covering it - is this communication?

And seriously, in the example as I put it above, you don't think there is an issue of intimidation involved?

I hate it when someone posts and asks for an opinion and then wants to b!tch and moan when you give that opinion.


Yes, but the difference is there's no rule that says, "Yelling ball, ball, ball is illegal." THAT'S WHY NO ONE MAKES THE CALL!

Why would anybody be intimidated just because someone is yelling, "Ball! Ball! Ball!"?

There's nothing illegal about this. They can and will continue to do it until it is made illegal. But right now, it ain't.

Tell you what, you throw the T the next time and then let us know what happens, including the reactions of fans, coaches, players, your partners, and your assignor. Since you'll be breaking new ground, it'll be interesting to hear what all those folks think of your new rule.

Point taken... I did ask for opinions. I was not complaining - I was pointing out other directions I wanted to go with the question. If it is not an appropriate call, that's fine - I disagree with the tactic, but if the rules don't support it, it's likely I won't make the call. Honestly, I never have believed that I am there to make people happy. My feeling, in all sports, as a participant, official, or coach, is that the officials' job is #1) keep the players safe, #2) enforce the rules, #3) attempt to keep the game flowing. Many officials feel #3 is more important than #1 or #2, and in professional sports, #4) keep paying people happy - is actually #1. This (the question of the screaming) really doesn't fall into any of the above categories... no one, other than myself and some other officials, have complained about it - I guess if the opposing coach has no problem with players screaming in his/her players faces, who am I to question it.

Thanks for the opinions.

Padgett will jump in here pretty soon and tell about a guy here in Portland who gives T's for yelling "SHOT!!" right as the shooter goes up. It doesn't matter how many times you tell him it's not illegal, and he shouldn't call it that way. When he gets the chance, he warns and then T's.

I've noticed a lot more boys yelling, "Ball, Ball, Ball..." this year than I remember in other years. Also this year, girls are yelling, "Dead! Dead! Dead!..." or as someone else pointed out, "Tight, Tight, Tight..." A think a little variety makes it much more palatable. Next year, I hope a team or two will have some rhythm added in, and maybe get the crowd to join in. Really get the gym rockin'!

Here's another "verbal tactics" sportsmanship question. Is it illegal for the opponent to yell, "Shoot!" at the ball-handler? It seems pretty unsportsmanlike to me, but I've never seen anyone call it. I'm not talking about the fans, I'm talking about the players on the floor, or sometimes the bench. How do others handle this?

I have heard recently guys yelling "dead, dead, dead" constantly.

I think this would be a really bad T if it was called. Some things are just apart of the game. If it was becoming something that is not acceptable, then the NF (NCAA or NBA) would come up with an interpretation to change it. I have never seen or heard anyone give a T for this and I probably will not see it anytime soon.

I think JR had the best advice. You better run this by and assignor or evaluator first to see what they think. It is not about whether the call would be acceptable or not. It is if they think you are using good judgment. You do want to surprise them with a call like this.

Peace

I was not complaining - I was pointing out other directions I wanted to go with the question. If it is not an appropriate call, that's fine - I disagree with the tactic, but if the rules don't support it, it's likely I won't make the call. [/B][/QUOTE]David, as I said before, you can <b>make</b> the rules support a technical foul call in this case. It's a judgement call. What you probably will be unable to do after that is to justify that call to other officials/assignor/evaluators/ etc. It is almost certain(at least to me) that your judgement will end up being questioned- big time.I really don't think that you want that.

Grin and bear it. :)

I've heard boys yelling "dead, dead, dead" after the dribble has ended. I think that is communication.

I don't know what yelling "ball, ball, ball" communicates. I wouldn't call a T for this. I think the worst thing I would do is ask her "can you stop saying that for no reason?" She would tell her teammates then the coach and the coach would ask why she can't say it. It wouldn't stop it but I think it would slow it down temporarily that game.
This is annoying but it isn't the only thing. Why do girls think they can just reach/grab for the ball no matter where it is on THE ENTIRE COURT? Of course this causes about 20 jump balls a game. Also, why do girls twist the top (straps or shoulder area) of their jerseys? If they all want thin straps why doesn't the school just buy them that way?

I hear ya. Girl are the worst to call, even over little kids just learning I think. I called some rec ball recently and the 2 girls High school aged games had more physical contact than a WWE wrestling match. The 4 little kids games were a breeze.

I admit the ball ball ball yelling does get on my nerves, especially when it always seems to be that girl with the higher pitched voice. Gives me a headache. I would not say anything unless the opposing coach complains. Then I would tell the girl to stop and tell her it borders on a USC call. Put enough fear into her to stop it tho I never would.

Padgett will jump in here pretty soon and tell about a guy here in Portland who gives T's for yelling "SHOT!!" right as the shooter goes up. It doesn't matter how many times you tell him it's not illegal, and he shouldn't call it that way. When he gets the chance, he warns and then T's.


When I first started playing, we were encouraged to yell "Boards!" if a shot went up. A signal to box out. And to yell "Ball!" if we secured the rebound. If I hear someone yelling "SHOT!", I'm thinking, "Smart coach."

Last nights games included two games with a club team from Ireland. Both were relatively easy games to officiate and lots of fun as the girls from Ireland kept wanting to use FIBA rules on freethrows and violation throw-ins. The second game was their younger group and they played against a local HS JV team. Do you know what it sounds like across the pond when they yell? It's the same..BALL BALL BALL BALL, DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD. Nobody in the V game did it but everybody in the JV game did. Still had lots of fun though.

It's supposed to be annoying and intimidating. I've heard coaches tell their girls to scream "ball, ball, ball" anytime the other team has the ball. The funniest thing that ever happened was this past spring tournament game where a girl was screeching "ball, ball, ball, ball" at my daughter. She hadn't dribbled yet, looked at the girl and said "yes it is" then blew by her while she screamed "and now the ball, ball ball, is gone, gone, gone"

Also, girls twist the tops of their jerseys because they are always too wide. Doesn't matter if it was a spaghetti strap, it would still be too wide. If they play in t-shirts it's the worst, constant twisting tucking, pulling. It drives a coach crazy! One season I bought them all sleeve scrunci's. Didn't matter, they still twisted, pulled, tucked, etc. I think they should play in tube tops and see if that helps. At least they would be pulling at something other then their shoulders! Maybe it would make them appreciate the jerseys.

While I don't believe screaming "ball, ball, ball" is illegal I do agree it is annoying and I won't let any of my girls do it. I've noticed the older they get (around here at least) the less it's done. The most my girls say is "I've got ball" or "I've got help" to each other to let them know what's going on.

Coach Gbert

And that was my point - saying "Ball" or "I've got ball", or "Dead" or "Shot" is communication. Screaming constantly is not - if you can't track the position of the ball on the court as a player without someone screaming constantly, I think something's wrong. There is definitely an intimidation/irritation factor involved, and i can almost guarantee that most coaches are teaching it for that purpose, versus for the purpose of communication, when it is done as loud as possible and as many times as your vocal cords can stand. And yes, I have done that myself... "BALLBALLBALL" - "Thanks - I think we know it is a ball" - most people laugh at that.

The shirt straps is another issue. Drives me nutz too, and has as a soccer official as well. But I've heard from females all the way from little girls up to older ladies that they somehow get overheated if their shoulders are covered, whether in athletics, or general life. Never understood this. Psyiological maybe?

Why would an official state they would never call a T? So many of us tend to follow others or make their own interpretation of NFHS rules. One should never admit never when it comes to making a judgment call. If a player was yelling words so loud as to intimidate or abuse or taunt the opponent, I feel you can use the 10-3-7 rule for a T. Remember coaches aren’t as dumb as we may think most are, as they tend to instruct their players to purposely do unsporting tactics to confuse their opponents.

Regarding the twisting of the girl’s uniforms, to me most female players and males are purposely altering their uniforms for attention or just being a wannabe.

I doubt that - certainly, you're warmer with covered shoulders, but it would be no different between males and females.

speaking of words that get yelled out -- how have you handled this sitch -- period winding down, say 15 seconds left; the kids on the defense's bench start a LOUD countdown ...5, 4, 3... trying to make the offensive player throw up a "Hail Mary" shot, then they get the rebound with 10 seconds still left to play.

As a former coach, this tactic is used to distract a ball-handler that has picked up his/her dribble, and is looking for an outlet to pass the ball. It also relates info to teammates that there is a possibility for a 5-second count, so tighten up your defense. Especially effective without the shot clock.

As a ref, I have no problem with this, because both teams are afforded the opportunity to use this tactic. Either team can do whatever they can 'within the confines of the rules' to accomplish their ultimate goal of winning the game. I don't have a problem with it; it is just chalked up as court noise in my mind and we keep playing.

mdray,

If you are talking about using a false countdown to confuse an opponent, I believe it is covered in the casebook and is penalized by a technical foul. I don't have the book with me, but I am pretty sure it is in there as an unsporting act. If the fans do it, that is one thing, but the bench personnel cannot.

What about yelling to disconcert the shooter on a field goal attempt, or clapping hands loudly near the shooter? I seem to recall some officials a couple of years ago saying they would call an unsportsmanlike technical in these instances. Is this all that different, or just different officials responding?

To drinkeii, I think what you're saying is that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to yelling defensive signals, and you consider it unsporting when that line is crossed. The problem is that you are defining that line and your partners may or may not agree with you. The two best answers were to ask your assignor and discuss this in your pre-game.

After you discuss this with your assignor, I would guess he will tell you not to penalize it or give you guidelines. If the latter, make sure you share these guidelines with your partners before the game.

In the long run, your relationship with your partners will prove to be more important than penalizing yelling. The players will adjust to the yelling.

Take another look when you get back to your books . . .

drink,
I'm amazed that you haven't heard this "Ball, ball, ball" thing before. It's been going on in girls ball around here for years. Is it annoying? Yes. Do I like it? Not particularly? Is it illegal? Nope. Am I gonna T up a kid for it? I can't see that happening. It's a part of the game in many places. I've even heard that some younger boys are doing it now -- which makes me groan! Also, IMHO your tourney director's likening this to a yellow card for Unsporting Behavior in soccer is a pretty weak comparison.

I've heard it off and on for the 6 years I've been reffing. This was the first time that someone told me that it could be considered unsportsmanlike. I made the comparison to soccer myself, because in soccer, there is a specifically enumerated penalty - "Deliberate Verbal Tactics". I don't consider this a weak comparison, even though the two are completely different sports. I would think that in most sports, except maybe football, getting in an opponent's face and screaming at them, regardless of what is said, would be a foul or violation of some sort. Passing it off as communication to teammates is, to me, a rather weak excuse, especially considering a coach above admitted that the purpose was to distract the ball handler and make them throw a bad pass, along with informing their teammates that they had picked up their dribble. It seems to fall under gamesmanship to me - practices in sports which are technically not illegal, but attempt to get around the rules in an unfair or unsportsmanlike manner.

But, as I said above, the rules don't seem to support my feeling that this isn't part of the game. Except in the most extreme cases, I doubt I'd even warn someone about this being a problem, since I don't feel I have the support of the rules or of the officiating community at large for a call such as a T for this.

Then again, when the rules required excessive swinging of the elbows without contact to be a T, refs in general refused to call it, and the rules changed back to making it a violation. (This was in the past 2-3 years of rules changes, I believe)

Again, thanks for the opinions.

Juulie,
I'd say you could make a case, depending on how it's done, that this is taunting. "Shoot it. Come on, shoot it."
Is that what you're talking about?

I don't remember ever reading this in any casebook; I do agree it is unsporting; I've issued a warning to the coach whenever I've heard it and that has worked. But whenever I've heard it, it's been at the end of the first half, so a warning seemed appropriate. However, if the only time a bench did it was at the end of a close game, a T may be the right call.

As a High School and grammer school coach I coach want my players to be vocal. I want them to scream 'Ball!' 'Dead!' and other things when playing defense. If someone calls a T for this during one of our games, be prepared to T me up at least once maybe twice, not to mention a letter to your assinger. ;)

Seriously guys, keep your ears closed and your eyes open and just call the game! :)

Coach WindyCityRef, I understand what you say and I can assure you that +99.9% of us are not calling a T or even saying anything to a kid no matter how many times they say ballballballball deaddeaddeaddead. However, just because a coach teaches something doesn't always mean it's right. I've had kids pourposly run oob on an inbounds play and when I had the first oppotunity to let them know that there's a rule against it and it was even a POE last year, they usually tell me that how their coach tells them to do it.
I understand what you're saying, do you understand what I'm saying?

BTW, any HS coach who threatens a letter to my assignor is going to get a chance to start their letter early and he'll also have to explain my report to the state.

Holy Cow, Adam, you can't just sneak in here and ask an innocent question like you've been around all this time. Where have you been, and how are you? Details, we want details!!

And yes, that's what I'm talking about, and yes it does border on taunting, I think, especially when it's done toward someone who doesn't shoot well, or who's havning trouble keeping control of the ball.

A classic!!!!

While, this is the basketball forum and others have done a fine job of addressing your question from a basketball perspective, I believe that part of the problem here is that you are even misunderstanding what is unsporting in NFHS soccer. So, I'm going to say a few things from that angle.

You have compared the yelling of "ball, ball, ball..." to high school soccer's deliberate verbal tactics rule.

While it is true that 12-8-1f(4) in the 2004-05 NFHS soccer rules book says, "A player, coach or bench personnel shall be cautioned (yellow card) for unsporting conduct, including, but not limited to: ...
4. deliberate verbal tactics;"
you are not properly grasping the spirit and intent of what that rule covers.

The accompanying case play 12.8.1 Situation D gives a good example of what is meant by unsporting verbal tactics. It states:
"Player A is waiting to receive a ball in the air. Opponent B, who is behind A, shouts "I'll take it" in an obvious attempt to deceive A into thinking B is a teammate calling for the ball. RULING: Stop play, caution B for unsportsmanlike conduct and restart with an indirect free kick by Team A at the spot of the ball."
(Note: This coming year the restart will occur from the spot of the misconduct due to a rule change.)

Notice that it is the deceit that is being punished as unsporting, not what is being said. While some deception clearly is allowed during the course of the game, (faking a shot or receiving a pass aka "dummying") certain deceitful acts cross the line of fair play and are prohibited. Pretending to be a teammate of a player who is not in a position to see another person is clearly out the line. I have little doubt that the NFHS committee made this decision for safety reasons. They are consistent throughout all the sports which they govern in protecting players from things out of their visual field. (Take a look at blind screens in basketball.)

Another good example would be a player unfairly using the sporting practice of returning possession to a team who kicked the ball OOB to allow an injured player to receive treatment.

While a team is under no obligation to do this, if a player first TELLS the other team to back off because he is going to throw the ball to their keeper, but then tosses it to a teammate who is now in an open position for an easy goal, it seems clear that his actions would be unsporting under the deliberate verbal tactics rule.

In short those are the things that the rule you mention in NFHS soccer is meant to cover. (I'll even look for the comments that accompanied its inclusion in the book and post what I find for you.)

I think that it is highly doubtful that a player closely marking an opponent and yelling "ball, ball, ball..." or "dead, dead, dead..." during an NFHS soccer match could rightfully be considered as violating 12-8-1f(4). They simply are not doing anything deceitful or dangerous.

If you wish to discuss the soccer side of this further just post in the soccer forum here or at nfhs.org. It would be interesting to see what responses you get.

My understanding from what I have been taught is that screaming in an opponent's face is considered deliberate verbal tactics. I understand the other situations fall under that (even though I've never heard of the faking a throw to the keeper to waste time - if someone's injured, the refs are supposed to stop the game - players shoulnd't need tactics to kill time to help an injured player get taken care of) as well.

Honestly - I cannot understand how anyone can consider screaming anything in an opponent's face from several inches away to not be unsportsmanlike. Especially when one of the effects they are looking for is to distract or disconcert the opponent, as one coach mentioned earlier. Maybe sports are different from what I think, but I would not consider that appropriate except in anything except a shouting match (or on certain talk shows).

High school sports are, by definition, an extention of the classroom. Sportsmanship is a required part of those sports. I guess maybe some people just consider that kind of behavior appropriate. I don't - and I work in the classroom.

That's quite a statement on sportsmanship from a coach who's already admitted that he's a whiner and complainer on the bench to the game officials.

Do you let the students in your classroom complain openly about your teaching too? Fair's fair, after all, in the wonderful world of <b>sportsmanship</b>.

Do as I say, not as I do?

I stated that on one occasion, I complained. Normally, I accept the officials without a problem. This past season, there was one game, out of 18, that I felt it necessary to complain due to the complete ineptitude of the one official. One game where I complained is CERTAINLY not making me a whiner and complainer. And I feel I have a unique perspective, being both a coach and an official. When officials don't do their job, someone should complain - maybe not to the official, since many refuse to listen (even as a partner)... I complain mainly when the safety of my kids is at stake. I can think of one soccer game I coached 7 years ago, and one basketball game this year, where that became an issue. And in both cases, I was very close to pulling the team off the court/field to protect their safety, since the officials obviously weren't doing their job in this regard, considering the number of injuries which occurred in both games.

You sound like the other extreme - an official is right, no matter how wrong he is, and because you are an official in a game, you can't possibly, under any circumstances, ever make a bad call or the wrong call. And if you ever, god forbid, do, no one has the right to say anything to you, even if you know you're wrong. That is a very poor attitude.

As for complaining in the classroom, it is accepted - I often ask the students if they have a better suggestion for how to handle certain types of material. I'm honest and up front about some of it (guys, this is boring stuff - i know - lets just get through it). Screaming in the face of another student isn't. Screaming in my face wouldn't be. But I do listen to the students and their opinions on things, including my teaching. Far too many officials feel that they are perfect, and even if they screw up, they shouldn't have any kind of consequences for doing so. That attitude goes a long way toward making officials elitist, which is not a good thing.

No one's perfect. I know this. I expect people to give their best effort, or at least close to it. Everyone has a bad game every now and then. But not being willing to listen to constructive criticism is more of a fault than most officials would make it out to be.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:24 AM]

I'm willing to bet you that over 90% of all officials have coached sports at some level in their lives. It's not unique at all.

I'm saying for basketball, currently. Most officials have coached. Most don't continue to officiate and coach at the same time. I know most swimming officials I work with are coaches at the same time. 1-2 soccer officials are out of 50 or so in our chapter. Basketball, almost none of them are currently coaches.

So the unique perspective I'm talking about is working with the officials on one hand, and being a coach "under" them on the other. I think officials often forget what it is like to be a coach, and vice versa. I like to consider both views.

I can't see the difference between an official who *currently* coaches and an official who *formerly* coached. Both sets of people experienced the game from both sides.

Regardless, I would still bet that many, if not the majority of officials you see at your level (middle school roughly?) are actively coaching basketball somewhere. Maybe not 90%, but certainly not 0%, making you non-unique.

This is a silly argument. I am not saying I am unique. I am saying it is a unique (or mostly unique) perspective, because many officials completely seem to discount coaches in terms of having any clue about the game or the rules. Some of us do actually know the rules, and have every right to be upset when the officials pick and choose which rules to use and which ones to ignore. Sports should not employ the concept of selective enforcement. There are rules. You can't play a game without rules. The officials are there to keep the players safe, and enforce the rules. (replace enforce with something less "pushy" if you wish - the concept is the same).

You sound like the other extreme - an official is right, no matter how wrong he is, and because you are an official in a game, you can't possibly, under any circumstances, ever make a bad call or the wrong call. And if you ever, god forbid, do, no one has the right to say anything to you, even if you know you're wrong. That is a very poor attitude.

[/B][/QUOTE]Nope, I just have no use for hypocrites that say one thing and then do another.

If you truly believe in sportsmanship, you wouldn't be moaning and pissing publically about the officials.

Btw, what qualifications do you possess to be able to so easily pass judgement on your fellow officials? Do you train officials? Teach mechanics and philosophy? Put on rules clinics?

You're just another whiny coach, David, trying to justify your unsporting behaviour. Please do us a favor and stick to coaching. Officiating isn't for you.

I am saying it is a unique (or mostly unique) perspective, because many officials completely seem to discount coaches in terms of having any clue about the game or the rules. Some of us do actually know the rules, and have every right to be upset when the officials pick and choose which rules to use and which ones to ignore.
[/B][/QUOTE]Not true, David. We certainly do <b>not</b> discount coaches who are rules knowledgeable and actually believe and teach sportsmanship. There are several coaches in that category that already post here, and they are always met with respect. You aren't in that category unfortunately. Also, very unfortunately, you aren't unique.

I agree, but there's a lot of that around here lately. And I'm saying your perspective, while unique to you, is hardly unique to the universe. You can either accept that or not.

(BTW, when Mr Semantics Guy swings by I'm sure he'll want to comment on the validity of qualifying "unique" with "mostly".)

Two options:

1) You were taught incorrectly.
2) You were taught correctly, but have extrapolated that to a common practice that does not meet the original criteria.

At least to the level I've seen it, the act, while annoying, does not meet the criteria for a technical foul.

You appear to think it *should* be a technical foul (or some other violation of the rules). There's a procedure for having your opinion considered by the rules committee. If it's changed, I'll call it.

Getting back to another version of the original question.... Is there any call that should be made if someone yelled or clapped at someone in the act of shooting?

Nope, I just have no use for hypocrites that say one thing and then do another.

If you truly believe in sportsmanship, you wouldn't be moaning and pissing publically about the officials.

Btw, what qualifications do you possess to be able to so easily pass judgement on your fellow officials? Do you train officials? Teach mechanics and philosophy? Give rules clinics?

You're just another whiny coach, David, trying to justify your unsporting behaviour. Please do us a favor and stick to coaching. Officiating isn't for you. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't see any hypocricy in what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with a coach complaining about my officiating if I'm doing a bad job. I'm not perfect, and I'm willing, unlike some officials, to admit it. It is more important for me to get the call right than to look like I'm perfect when everyone knows I'm not.

As for the supposed lack of sportsmanship in complaining about officiating... If you're referring to my complaints to the officials during those two games in 7 years, I don't think that is an appropriate comparison. I had some horrible officials (the game before the soccer game I blew up at, a girl had her arm broken, with the same officials. The officials aren't directly responsible - however, they lacked the ability to control the game. 4 of my players got hurt during that game - when the officials aren't even able to keep the players reasonably safe, they are not qualified), and reacted to it. If you're referring to my bringing the complaints up here, I asked if there was anything that could be done about it. The general consensus was "No - They're not going to try during the summer, you're going to get partners (and officials, when coaching) that are not officials, and are not qualified for the level they're working during the summer, and you just gotta lump it.". That's fine. I just happen to set a higher standard for myself.

I do train officials, in an intramural league (which, at this point, you're probably saying "so what") - correct mechanics, rules interps, etc - when I hit something I don't know, I ask someone who knows more than I do. Several have gone on to be high school officials in basketball or other sports. These kids work 40-50 games a year each, and receive a half-credit for the class/work.

Actually I got into coaching after being an official for several years. Complaining about one or two games out of several years is not being a whiney coach. I have the same complaints when I get a partner who does things completely outside the rules. Whether I voice them or not, I am, as anyone is, entitled to my opinion. And I don't think it is unreasonable to have officials who are qualified (however you want to define that) for the level of the game which they are handling. I define it as able to keep the players safe and handle the situations which come up during the game correctly.

And your response to stop officiating and just be a coach sounds exactly like the attitude of "Officials are always right, even if they're wrong". I may not be able to do much as a coach, but I am certainly entitled to have a complaint when officials don't do their job. Just as anyone has a right to complain if I, as an official or coach, don't do my job. Or if I don't do my job as a teacher. No one is perfect (except you, I guess).


[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 03:46 PM]

So in sports, it is appropriate to scream in another player's face? Simple question. Yes or no?

As I said - I'll accept the general consensus that it's not a foul. I don't like it - I don't agree with it - But it's not my rules - it's the NFHS rules, and I'll follow those. That was why I brought it up here - to see if I was correct or not - I was not.

In general, I agree with you. However, nothing is perfect. I had a game once that was very "mild" - few fouls, certainly nothing even coming close to "rough play". With about two minutes left, one player just up and punched another player right in the mouth. This was a boys varsity rec game.

No one could have seen this coming and there was nothing beforehand that could have tipped us off.

Both coaches were aghast (get out your dictionary).

BTW - we never found out what prompted it.

That is not a consistent lack of control during a game - that is a freak incident, over which the officials have no control. I'm referring to games where the game is out of control from the beginning, with hard fouls not getting called.

I am glad to see someone agrees with me about something :)

The question is way too vague to answer.

Scream what?

What sport?

"Appropriate" how?

The answer to your question, though, it "yes" for the specific play described.

And the dead horse said, "Cut it out! I'm dead already!"

What? Anything other than swearing or taunting specifically, because those are covered elsewhere.

What sport? Any - I don't know of any that involve screaming in opponent's faces that woulnd't be considered unsportsmanlike.

"Appropriate" within the bounds of good sportsmanship.

Give me ONE example of any sport, other than the specific situation described, where it is within the bounds of sportsmanship to scream anything in an opponent's face from 2-3 inches away at the top of your lungs. (Again, leaving out taunting and language)

Dead horse or not... i still think (even though the rules don't support calling a foul in basketball) that that specific action is unsportsmanlike. A coach on here even stated that it was partially to distract the opponent and mess with their concentration.

If it is out of control from the beginning it is the coaches fault, not the officials.

It's subjective too. I've seen coaches screaming for "obvious" fouls when there was zero contact, and "hard or intentional" fouls on players playing the ball with normal contact.

Any time a coach uses the, "You are going to get somebody hurt," or, "Several players got hurt, " they have zero credibility.

I had a game where a player broke his wrist after his shot was blocked. Completely clean play, LGP, verticality and no contact before the block. The offensive player got spun slightly when his shot was blocked and he caught the defenders hip on the way down. His legs went horizontal and he landed on his arm first.

Did I feel bad? Sure.

Was there a foul? No.

Was the injury my fault? No.

You prove JR and my initial impression of you with every post you make.

It is appropriate in the sports I work. I know of no rule that makes it clear that yelling something illegal. I think you are just trying to find something because you do not like it. In all the sports I work, not only are the rules important, but so is custom. The yelling of "ball, ball, ball...." is a custom as long as I can remember in the game of basketball. I know a similar call is made in football when the ball is on the ground. Players are not yelling this to intimidate their opponents; they are letting their teammates of a situation.

You are right, these are the NF rules. I the NF feels this is not appropriate, then they will make a ruling or call to question this action and change the rules to reflect that. Also your state and assignors can make a philosophy change to reflect your opinion. Until then, you are just reaching for straws hoping that someone will go along with your ideal.

Peace

See - another post from an official who thinks they are always right. The coaches don't have much control over the contact on the floor. If the refs pass on fouls that allow the game to get out of control, it is most assuradly their fault. Yes, the coaches can tell their teams to go out and head-hunt, or to play nice... what the players do isn't always completely up to the coach. And there are many coaches who teach dirty tactics, to gain an advantage, hoping the refs don't notice or call it.

In this case, it wasn't your fault. But to say that the officials have no responsibility for the safety of the players, and that it is the coach's fault is completely wrong. Not an opinion... that is just completely wrong.

And what opinion is that? I have a slightly different take on things, because I don't believe any official (myself included) is perfect. Some of you guys do. And that is why you're saying you refuse to accept any responsibility when players do get hurt because of a lack of game control. The coaches are certainly within their rights to complain if a number of injuries occur in a game - the refs didn't keep it under control. Or the otehr option is that it is really horribly sloppy play, and that the officials couldn't do anything about it - that is a rare case, from what I have seen. Most sloppy play doesn't lead to injuries - only hard fouls that don't get called consistently.

I would love to hear the opinion you have of me - I attempt to protect the players as a ref, and as a coach. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Also - if we weren't, as officials, responsible for anything that occurs out on the floor safety-wise, as you say, then why would we need any kind of liability insurance? The coaches would, in your scenario, because they're responsible for excessive contact and fouling, regardless of what the officials choose to call.

And if that football player gets into an opponent's face and starts screaming that the ball is on the ground, you don't think the officials will step in? Again, I was never talking about communication - I am talking about the 2-3 inch from your face at the top of your lungs screaming.

And last I checked - there is a rule book and case book (and a few others for basketball) - no "custom" book. Just becaue people do it doesn't mean it is sportsmanlike, or should be part of the game. The argument "We've always done it that way" is the worst cop-out you can have to not making a change for the better.

Finally - i was not reaching for straws. I was looking for opinions on how to handle it. We know the general consensus - there is nothing to handle. So best I can do is hope the NFHS sees it for what it is... something not covered in the rules that, at least to me, is clearly unsportsmanlike, and call the game ignoring those actions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 06:33 PM]

I never said I was perfect you take an opposing view as ego and wrong, pretty ironic, IMO.

Pot meet kettle.

I work a lot of games. Anywhere from 500 to 800 games a year. I work HS varsity and some JUCO down to little kids and adult rec leagues.

That's a lot of games with a lot of different partners from high quality to brand new, and everything in between.

I have NEVER, in at least 5,000 games, seen a player hurt because the officials lost control of the game.

Add in all the games I've watched while evaluating other officials or just watched because I love it, and I still have never seen it happen.

I have seen players hurt, to be sure, but in several thousand games not one hurt on a cheap, uncalled foul.

Like I said, it's coachspeak and it lends no credibility.

Any time a coach uses the, "You are going to get somebody hurt," or, "Several players got hurt, " they have zero credibility.

[/B][/QUOTE]"You are going to get somebody hurt" is coachspeak for "You need to call a whole bunch of fouls on the <b>other</b> team because I'm not a smart enough coach to figure out a way to beat this team without getting some help".

I think that covers our David's philosophy nicely.

Poor David.

Bad officials doing his games. Bad partners when he officiates. Bad assignor putting people with him and on his games. Bad NFHS for not re-writing the rules to David's liking. Bad posters here for not agreeing with him.

Bad, bad <b>everybody</b>.

Poor, poor David. :D

Are you sure you are an official?

Seriously, when an official decides not to call a foul, it is their fault? That makes no sense at all. I have seen smaller players take on much bigger players and the bigger player did nothing but be big. I guess if a big player sets a legal screen and no teammate calls out the screen for a smaller player and that player hits the floor hard, I guess the officials should take responsibility for not making a call? Dude, what world are you living in? I have called fouls in many rough games and the players or coaches do not stop. That is why players have 5 fouls and teams shoot after 7 fouls.

I had a game about 6 years ago where a player dislocated his ankle on a lay-up with no one around him. I guess I should feel like it was my responsibility for that very serious injury. As a matter of fact some of the most serious basketball injuries I have seen took place when no contact was made. I kid landed wrong, a slipped trying to make a cut or losing their balance after trying to dunk the ball. There was a kid just recently that died from my area in a tournament down south because he grabbed on the ring and fell on his head. I guess the officials caused that death in your eyes.

Our job is to call the game according to the rules and the spirit of those rules. Our job is not to protect all players from possible injury. I can call an obvious flagrant foul and a player will still get hurt. I can also call a foul every time there is contact and still have a very serious injury when a player takes actions into his own hands. Not sure what you are talking about. I think coaches have more of a responsibility to keep their player's safe and their opponents. I have seen a lot of teams try dirty tactics and then blame the officials when we make a call. Then you go out of your way to remove us from a conference or off a game when we call things not to your liking.

Do not give me this "it is the official's responsibility" crap. I know as a football officials have seen very serious injuries and the game were played completely within the rules at the time of the injury. There is only so many things any official can do or see.

Peace

I agree with JRut on this one. Officials can't really prevent fouls, and they certainly can't prevent injuries. The best we can do is hope to deter these things from happening. The simple fact is that if there is a flagrant foul, and a kid gets injured, my seeing and calling that action flagrant does not stop the injury. Now, it is true that it may deter someone else from commiting a similar act and injuring another player, but it can't actually prevent another foul. It works kinda like the justice system, punishments aren't really preventative, they are designed to be deterrents.

In the end, it is up to the players to determine how rough a game is going to be. I just recently had a game with 1 foul in the first half. Both teams in zone defenses, and almost no contact the entire half. In the second half, we had one intentional foul, one techincal foul, and both teams in the bonus. When the kids got physical, we continued to call fouls, but they just wouldn't stop. The game never got out of control, but the players just continued to foul eachother. Even one of the coaches said to me, "I don't know what happened to them. Every kid I put in the game just kept fouling."

Isn't your first statement contradictory to the other two? I think coaches have much more "control" over the contact on the floor than the officials. Even if we call a ton of fouls, if a kid wants to injure another kid, he's gonna do it.

Also, you're idea that the teams don't always play the way the coaches want them to doesn't really hold up. If a player is playing the opposite of how his coach wants, the coach will pull him.

I agree.

I agree.

You argue that owning insurance is equivalent to accepting responsibility for any liability.

My insurance agent has a different take on this. Maybe he's unique.

[/B][/QUOTE]

See - another post from an official who thinks they are always right. The coaches don't have much control over the contact on the floor. If the refs pass on fouls that allow the game to get out of control, it is most assuradly their fault. Yes, the coaches can tell their teams to go out and head-hunt, or to play nice... what the players do isn't always completely up to the coach. And there are many coaches who teach dirty tactics, to gain an advantage, hoping the refs don't notice or call it.

In this case, it wasn't your fault. But to say that the officials have no responsibility for the safety of the players, and that it is the coach's fault is completely wrong. Not an opinion... that is just completely wrong.

And what opinion is that? I have a slightly different take on things, because I don't believe any official (myself included) is perfect. Some of you guys do. And that is why you're saying you refuse to accept any responsibility when players do get hurt because of a lack of game control. The coaches are certainly within their rights to complain if a number of injuries occur in a game - the refs didn't keep it under control. Or the otehr option is that it is really horribly sloppy play, and that the officials couldn't do anything about it - that is a rare case, from what I have seen. Most sloppy play doesn't lead to injuries - only hard fouls that don't get called consistently.

I would love to hear the opinion you have of me - I attempt to protect the players as a ref, and as a coach. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Also - if we weren't, as officials, responsible for anything that occurs out on the floor safety-wise, as you say, then why would we need any kind of liability insurance? The coaches would, in your scenario, because they're responsible for excessive contact and fouling, regardless of what the officials choose to call.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I would say that this is a shared responsibility with the coaches and officials. Some officials just flat don't know how to get kids to knock off the rough play but they still try to. That's a great time for the coaches to help them out by controlling their own team. That is, if they really do want the game to be controlled. ?? If a coach doesn't want his kid getting hurt in a rough game that's being officiated loosly or even if it's called closely and they still kepp fouling, don't let your kids drive the lane like a wild Banche who's hoping to draw a foul, and they'll lessen their odds.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Jul 6th, 2005 at 09:40 PM]

I quit.

Apparently the following is true:

1) I know nothing about officiating.
2) I am not a good official for asking questions.
3) My idea of sportsmanship is not in line with what everyone else's is.
4) I am the only one who cares about trying to officiate a good game, and have a partner who does the same.
5) I am not responsible in any way for the actions of the players on the floor - only coachs are.
6) It is wrong to expect your partner to have a decent amount of training and experience relative to the level of game you are placed on with them.
7) Coaches should never ever presume that an official made a bad call, because officials never do.
8) Officials should never presume their partner made a bad call, because they never do.
9) Officials should never presume that they themselves made a bad call, because that never happens - every call or no-call an official makes is perfect and unquestionable.
10) This message board has a lot of people on it who feel that they are the only one who can possibly be right about a particular topic. Anyone who disagrees is a bad official.

Thank you for all of your opinions on the various topics that I have asked about. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into them, althought not as much the personal attacks telling me I should confine my actions to coaching or that I am a bad official.

I shall confine my future commentary to asking questions as I have done in the past - when I hit a question one of my student officials asks that I cant answer, or I have an unusual situation come up, I will post it and look for answers. For that purpose, this message board is a valuable tool. Telling people they are bad officials is not a valid purpose of this board, when you have never seen that official work.

But I am tired of bringing up what I consider to be reasonable points, and having them shoved back in my face, often with sarcasm, saying that they are idealistic. I set high standards. I don't always meet them. But I have learned that the best way to get good at something is set high standards. I do it for myself, I do it for the students I teach, and for the players I coach. I try to teach them the right things to do, and the right way to do them. I do not allow them to play cheaply or dirtily during games, and pull them out if they do. I do expect them to be safe when they go out on the floor - maybe this is an unrealistic expectation. Accidents happen. Accidents are, for the most part, preventable. A lack of willingness to accept responsibility for something you have control over does not mean the responsibility isn't there - only that you see yourself as above it.

Ignorance is bliss. I'm rather un-blissful, because I am informed, not ignorant.

Again thanks for the opinions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:36 PM]

The only way to prevent "accidents" on the basketball floor is to not play. Few if any of the injuries that have happened in the games I've worked have been caused by uncalled fouls (this would be between 7 and 10 thousand games over seven years).

The problem in this thread isn't our arrogance or refusal to admit that we're wrong. It's your complete unwillingness to let anyone else have the right to set their own standards. I certainly hope I never have one of your games to work, and that I never have you as a partner. I am incapable of giving 100% every game, and I don't want to be held to that standard. Good enough is good enough. Period.

Hmmm,

Generalize much?

:rolleyes:

Must be lonely up there on the "high road" all by yourself.

Get off your freaking high horse.

You are making broad, uninformed generalizations and call out everyone else, without seeing them work. You know what you claim we are doing.

You say everyone that does not agree with your view are officials that will never admit to being wrong. Time to look in the mirror, it is not a coincidence that nobody has fully agreed with you...hmmm, perhaps it is you?

My money is on you being just what you accuse others of being. Your posts scream of hypocrisy.

It's lonely at the top, isn't it?

Lah me!

#4 is definatly wrong.
Don't agree with #5, 7, 8, 9, or 10.
Regarding #6- hopefully, but if not, we'll get thru it.
All the rest I agree with what YOU said except the bliss stuff.

Dave,

No need to go off on the deep end, all that was stated originally was that you have to be realistic, not idealistic, in what you're expecting from a summer league game. Where you got the other 'information' for your ten point whitewash is not understood.

You asked a question, you received answers. I understand that you set a high standard level on yourself and others, but you 've just gotta see that not everyone looks at it like you do. Summer basketball is just that: Summer Basketball. Summer good, summer bad. I've never heard of any team being "Summer State Champs". It is a good learning ground for players, coaches AND officials. But some people run tourneys only with the intent of getting teams in and making money. As mentioned in another post, do some research before signing up to play. There are a lot of officials that take pride in what they do, whenever they step on the court. But, there are also some officials that are strictly 'chasing the dollar', and will only work to collect money in the summer.

Players are 2-3 INCHES from another's face? Think about that for a moment. Look at a ruler. Is that really the statement you are making? And there is no body contact I suppose with someone 2-3 inches from the opponent's face.



[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:23 PM]

Yes - i am not exaggerating. 2-3 inches (6-9cm or so) from the opponent's face, screaming "BALL BALL BALL" so close flecks of spit are hitting them.

I do not care to get back into the argument - just answering a simple question.

After reading 6 pages of this, I am amazed at your case David and I see no logic in it. Numerous referees who have years of experience and have spent collectively several thousands of dollars on camps and clinics to further understand the rules, mechanics and nuances of the game, have told you that in no way is this act a Technical foul by any definition or interp of the rule and case book. Then to follow-up with they are all high and mighty and don't admit when they make a bad call is ludicrous. If you read through the thousands of threads on this board, I bet you will find a post from just about all of them that says basically, "Wow... I kicked one but good in a game I had last night!". As a coach (read: educator), I find your propensity for generalizations a bit scary.

Quite simply put, this is why this situation is not a "T" and never will be:

Coaches from the top levels down teach their players to communicate loudly with each other especially on defense. Call out picks, call out cutters, call out post settings, call out defensive sets, etc, etc. I work an NBA team's scrimmages on occasion where I live and I can't tell you how many times this NBA coach has stopped the scrimmage in mid-set to ream out a player for not communicating something defensively.

Specific to your situation, the coach wants the defender on ball to communicate to his/her teammates that s/he is on ball and they do this loudly to ensure the teammate hear it. Similarly, if the player picks up the ball and does not have a dribble you will hear, "DEAD, DEAD, DEAD" or something similar. Additionally, most coaches want the defender up tight on his/her opponent. This makes the offensive player uncomfortable (if done right) just by the fact that s/he is in their space. It makes post entries difficult and has a tendency to rattle some players. Now the fact that they are taught to play close defensively and loudly communicate with their teammates by yelling ball, ball, ball or something similar does not warrant a T by any stretch. If the yelling also, contributes the rattling of the player, well then the other coach needs to toughen his players up a bit.

Conversely, if the defensive player is up tight yelling "YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK"... well then we have an usporting T and something to talk about.

See the difference?

For the record, I have no problem, telling a coach that I missed one, when I know for a fact I booted it. Sometimes its not right away, because it does not make sense to approach an angry lion, but once he has simmered down a bit, during a FT or the like, I will slide on over to him, and tell him what I thought of that previous call.

I can see the concern here, 2 inches is pretty close. I've never seen this. I can't imagine it happening this way without contact, which could then be called a foul. I expect most of us are thinking of distances more like 6 inches to a foot or more apart. I've not seen much defense at all that involves 2 inch separation. I think if I saw the case you're describing, and the distance was really only 2 inches, I'd call a foul. THere's got to be some contact in there somewhere!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
[B]

God never makes a mistake...
But she was wrong...

She made a huge mistake creating "drinkeii's" intellectual mind and it is extremely sad that you are a high school basketball official.

Johnny, I think this is completely out of line. To insult the guy's very nature is not at all appropriate on this baord no matter how much we disagree with his opinions. There's been some pretty heated debate, but no real mud-slinging, and for you to throw the first handful doesn't speak well of you personally, but it also reflects on all of us. Please let's not continue in this vein!