I just want to be sure I've got this straight.

A1 is "chinning" the ball -- holding the ball with both hands near her throat or chest, with elbows straight out to the sides.

a) She pivots her body from the waist, and elbows move with the body movement with no contact with opponent. Legal.

b) She pivots her elbows from the shoulders several times, with no contact. Violation.

c) She pivots her body, elbows move with body, and an elbow contacts an opponent who has legal guarding position. PC foul.

d) She looks at her opponent, and then pivots her elbow into the opponents nose. Flagrant personal foul.

1) I'm not sure you can separate the waist and the shoulders when looking at the pivoting. More times than not, I'm calling this a violation, because the elbows are moving faster than the hips.

2) Agreed.

3) Yes, but I don't believe LGP is requirement.

4) Intentional, and possibly flagrant.

Okay, thanks. #3 is what I was aiming at. I've called it twice this week, and both times gotten an arguement from the player.

"They changed that rule! It's legal to pivot!"

"Moving the elbows some is more legal than it was, but any contact is still a foul."

"You need to check your rule book."

"Care to join me?"

I was pretty sure I was right, but just feeling uncertain, since it was one right after the other. Furthermore, the rule change was two years ago, and the wording I found in the book since then is a little ambiguous. Any suggestions where to refer people who really do want to look it up?

I have to disagree that "any contact [with the elbow in this situation] is still a foul."

It is very likely that I would rule it incidental contact and not call a foul, if the player chinning the ball was merely pivoting.

You are, of course, right that this play was not affected at all by the recent rule change. Only the non-contact play (excessive swinging of the elbows) was changed from a T to a violation.

So in thinking about the various possibilities, here's another way to re-word my question. Is it possible for the person holding the ball to cause contact between her elbow and a defender and have it be incidental? If A1 is "chinning" the ball, with elbows extended, is there any legal contact between elbow and defender? How close to the body do the elbows have to be for contact to be incidental? Any other criteria that apply to this situation?

Nevada, would it matter to you if the defender who took the elbow was in front of the ball-holder? The fellow holding the ball could clearly see the defender who was very close, and although I don't think the ball-holder aimed, nor that he "threw" the elbow deliberately, he certainly didn't restrain himself in any way. It was a hard enough hit that the defender fell backward and sideways, and there was a red mark on his face afterward.


Also, any rule references that would be helpful?

[Edited by rainmaker on Jun 27th, 2005 at 01:52 AM]

Let me start by stating that the elbows are one part of the body that can do a considerable amount of damage and are considered dangerous with good reason. Also, acknowledging that player safety is of paramount importance to sports officials, it seems unlikely that you will ever get knocked for committing an error if your concern on a play was for the well being of a player.


That being said it is my humble opinion that contact which doesn't inhibit normal defense would have to be considered incidental (4-27 is the best rule reference), even in the specific case you describe (initiated by the ballholder and with the elbow).

So, just as with contact caused by any other part of the body, the official has to make a judgment call here whether the contact inhibits the defender or not.
I would put the example you give (the defender was struck in the face and fell backwards and sideways) in the definitely inhibits column and thus have a foul.

While in a couple of other cases, I find it hard to deem that a foul occurred:
1. A1's elbow hitting B1's forearm while A1 is pivoting and attempting to prevent B1 from causing a held ball.
2. A1's elbow hitting the side of B1's torso and not causing any displacement as A1 steps around B1 to throw a pass.


And how about a gray area just for fun:
1. A1's elbow clips the nose or chin of B1 after B1 took a defensive position just short of contact. Let's say the contact doesn't cause the defender to back off or fall backwards, but he could be momentarily stunned.

Perhaps this is analogous to when a player gets poked in the eye. Frequently, this is not a foul.

Lastly, consider what you think of A1 pivoting and colliding knee-to-knee with B1 while B1 is stationary.

Of course, all of this is only my individual opinion and you will need to follow the instructions of those in your area who give the orders. We seem to allow a fair amount of contact here.