A1 is shooting free throws. Team A is leading near the end of the game, so they don't have any players on the lane. Team B has 4 players occupying their designated spaces. Would it be a lane violation if team B occupied the four spaces closest to the basket?

Situation 2: A1 shooting free throws. Six players on lane. A2 and B2 (closest to the basket on one side) are in each other's designated spot. What should be done here, if anything?

Situation 1 - there is no violation. The NF rule book says the shooting players "may" occupy those spaces. If they choose not to, the non-shooting team may occupy them.

Situation 2 - the officials should not put the ball at the disposal of A1 if that is the case. It is the official's responsibility to make the players move first. If for some reason, it still happens, it is a simultaneous violationsas soon as A1 has the ball at his disposal. Following this game, the officials may be subjected to the Spanish Inquisition - without the comfy chair! ;)

[Edited by mark padgett on Jun 14th, 2005 at 05:52 PM]

Is the new 2005-2006 book out yet and is this a change? My book doesn't say that at all.

Interesting, my online rule book that I use is different from my physical rule book. I'll have to check that other ruling as well.

Thanks.

Brainbrain - where are you getting this? My 2004-2005 NF book clearly states (NF 8-4-c) "During a free throw when lane spaces may be occupied: The second marked lane spaces on each side may be occupied by teammates of the free thrower" and NF 8-4-d states: "...The third marked lane spaces may be occupied by opponents of the free thrower".

The language always says "may". The actual number of the spaces in not stated in the way you have it and the use of the word "may" does not mean "must".

AHA - I notice you deleted your recent posts while I was typing. You know - the one that said "or am I wrong again". Apparently, you realized you were.

[Edited by mark padgett on Jun 14th, 2005 at 05:50 PM]

Situation 2
NFHS 9-1 Penalty 3: "If there is a simultaneous violation by each team the ball becomes dead and no point can be scored. Remaining free throws are administered or play is resumed by the team entitled to the alterating-possession throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the simultaneous violation occured."

Ssshhh... pretend it never happened. :D

I was getting those rules from an online book that was I guess either wrong or old. I'll stop using it and on my last post I just typed it in from my physical book, so that should be right. (2004-05 book by the way)

And that Mark is just arguing with himself?! Yea, that doesn't take much imagination...

Sometimes the other people in my head win the arguments.

Following this game, the officials may be subjected to the Spanish Inquisition - without the comfy chair!


Fear and surprise are their main weapons.

And an almost fanatical devotion to the rulebook.

And they make up their own interpretations.

And the penalty for ejection was just a l'il bit more severe than other leagues are now.

I'll come in again.

Why penalized the offense by calling a simultaneous foul when both players is in the wrong spot? As an official we should have recognized it before putting the ball at the disposal of the thrower. And since its 2 free throws and if you already put the ball at the thrower disposal you should just ignore it until the second attempt than move them before the second attempt.

Now if for some reason that you miss it and notice it before the thrower attempt the free throw than I would blow my whistle right away before he/she released the ball and move them to their right spot assuming that it’s a 1 and 1 situation.

If I waited until the thrower is done with his attempt and call a violation and take the point away, than I will hear it from the coach for not having the players in the right spot. I feel it’s our responsibility to have the right players in the right spot as well as having 5 “A” players and 5 “B” players on the court during all subs and start of each quarter before we start play.


By calling a simultaneous violation and going to the alternating possession you are penalizing the offense and that would piss me off as a coach if the game was going to be decided by free throws attempt.
That’s why I rarely call a double/simultaneous foul and going to the alternating possession, am glad that they change the ruling for the double/simultaneous foul rules and no longer goes with the alternating possession.

I know that the rule say it is a simultaneous violation and should be called but there are some rules in the book that most officials do not applied during the game this is where you should use good game management and correct it without penalizing a team.

I disagree completely with everything that you said above.

1)Why penalize the DEFENSE then by NOT calling the double violation? Isn't the double violation the RIGHT call? Aren't there TWO teams on the court? Do you always make it a habit of favoring one team over the other? What other obvious violations do you ignore in your game? And ignore a violation and maybe let a FT count that shouldn't have? Yup, that would go over great if the defending team lost by a point. I wanna be there when you try to explain that one.

2)What rule allows you to use that little procedure? Or do you just make up your own rules as you go along? The RULES say it's a violation. The RULES!!!! Not streetball rules! The RULES!!

3)Why would you EVER wait until the FT attempt is over before blowing the double violation? It's a violation when it occurs- not sometime later in the game. And who cares if a coach questions you when you've made the RIGHT call?

4)Again, by NOT making the correct call, you are penalizing the defense. And what about the OTHER coach? You know- the one you just screwed by making up your own rule and not following the one in the rulebook? What are you gonna tell HIM? Gonna tell him "Oh, I didn't like that rule, Coach, so I went ahead and made up my own"? I wanna be there when you try that one.

5)To be quite honest- and blunt-I don't think that you'd recognize good game management if it jumped up and bit you on the @ss. Good game management is NOT ignoring rules, making up your own rules, worrying about what a coach MIGHT say and penalizing a team for no reason.

The only place that your recommendations would be acceptable, Streetball, would be in streetball imo.

Lah me.

Yes, you should do your best to make sure that the players are lined up properly. Sh*t happens however. Once it does, simply follow the rules and don't bother making up your own.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 16th, 2005 at 07:01 AM]

[/B][/QUOTE]I disagree completely with everything that you said above.

1)Why penalize the DEFENSE then by NOT calling the double violation? Isn't the double violation the RIGHT call? Aren't there TWO teams on the court? Do you always make it a habit of favoring one team over the other? What other obvious violations do you ignore in your game? And ignore a violation and maybe let a FT count that shouldn't have? Yup, that would go over great if the defending team lost by a point. I wanna be there when you try to explain that one.

2)What rule allows you to use that little procedure? Or do you just make up your own rules as you go along? The RULES say it's a violation. The RULES!!!! Not streetball rules! The RULES!!

3)Why would you EVER wait until the FT attempt is over before blowing the double violation? It's a violation when it occurs- not sometime later in the game. And who cares if a coach questions you when you've made the RIGHT call?

4)Again, by NOT making the correct call, you are penalizing the defense. And what about the OTHER coach? You know- the one you just screwed by making up your own rule and not following the one in the rulebook? What are you gonna tell HIM? Gonna tell him "Oh, I didn't like that rule, Coach, so I went ahead and made up my own"? I wanna be there when you try that one.

5)To be quite honest- and blunt-I don't think that you'd recognize good game management if it jumped up and bit you on the @ss. Good game management is NOT ignoring rules, making up your own rules, worrying about what a coach MIGHT say and penalizing a team for no reason.

The only place that your recommendations would be acceptable, Streetball, would be in streetball imo.

Lah me.

Yes, you should do your best to make sure that the players are lined up properly. Sh*t happens however. Once it does, simply follow the rules and don't bother making up your own.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 16th, 2005 at 07:01 AM] [/B][/QUOTE] If I was a defensive player and knowing that a simultaneous violation is going to be called I would attempt to be in the other team spot when there is 6 player's in the lane and that to me is advantage "Defense"

Game management? During a free throw attemp you throw the ball at the disposal of the thrower and as the thrower begin bouncing the ball and getting ready for the shot you realized the offensive team has an extra player in the lane.
Do you blow your whistle and call a violation because the book say so or do you blow ur whistle and tell that player that he cannot occupied the last spot?

Game management? During a free throw attemp you throw the ball at the disposal of the thrower and as the thrower begin bouncing the ball and getting ready for the shot you realized the offensive team has an extra player in the lane.
Do you blow your whistle and call a violation because the book say so or do you blow ur whistle and tell that player that he cannot occupied the last spot? [/B][/QUOTE]I follow the rules I don't make up my own rules. Does that answer your question?

Game management? That's a joke. You're advocating that an official completely ignore an obvious violation by one team. Got news for you. That means that YOU just screwed the OTHER team. Good luck trying to explain that one to an assignor/evaluator/coach-that-you-just-screwed.

You're not refereeing streetball, Streetball. Just because you don't happen to like or agree with a rule doesn't mean that you get to make up your own rule to replace it. Officiating doesn't work that way.

When two players are switched on the lane, I guarantee the defensive player isn't trying to gain an advantage. It's the offensive player trying to steal the bottom spot.

I think you gotta remember what level your dealing with as well when managing the court. If you got experienced players on the floor they should know where to line up, so violation needs to be called. I know when I am working minor basketball with some younger kids they just don't understand all the rules yet and sometimes need to be guided along. It still is our responsibility to try and ensure everyone is in their correct spot before administering the FT. But like was already said SH*t happens.

I was thinking high school levels, even though they sometimes just get screwed up, but I believe at higher levels the player taking the bottom spot knows what he is doing.

Bottom line is that as the lead, you do not give the ball to the shooter until 2 opponents have the first lane spaces on each side. If guys are being jerks, thre is an appropriate response, but just saying "White has the first space" will clear things up in a hurry.

If the FT starts with A and B in the wrong spots then, yes, the officials (all of them) have messed up.

BUT, you don't screw things up further by ignoring the proper way - per rule - to deal with the situation. It's the same as having 6 players on the court. You can't just stop play, say "oops" and have a do-over. The coaches and players have some responsibility to follow the rules, even when they're not perfectly enforced.