In an end of game situation (or I guess anytime) can the team that scores a basket (not free throw) call a time out before the opponent inbounds the ball in order to save time and set up the defense? I know they can after a free throw when the clock is stopped but what about when the clock is running? Thanks for any clarification on this, am still learning.

Any team can call timeout when the ball is dead.

The ball is dead from the moment it passes through the net until the throwin begins. The throwin begins when the throw has the ball in his hands and is in a position to make a legal throw (or has had enough time to do so but is deliberately delaying). This coincides with the start of the 5 second count.

Said another way, the team may call the timeout anytime between the shot and the start of the 5 second count.

Camron - I'm going to give you a pass this time on teams "calling" vs. "requesting" a timeout just because I'm in such a good mood. Besides - I'm really tired.

The rule says at the disposal 6-1-2.

There is nothing in the rules about being in position to make a throw-in. CB 6.1.2.B and comment.

Once the throwing team has the ball it is too late.

This is another small difference between NFHS and NCAA rules. The NCAA rule says something along the lines of the scoring team may request a TO until the thrower has the ball in his hands and is positioned OOB to make the throw-in.
For NFHS rules it is too late once the ball is deemed to be at the disposal of the thrower.

But it's not at their disposal until they have it (or could have had it) in a position to make a throwin. That's the meaning of at the disposal.

Either team can call the timeout until the ball becomes live. When does it become live? When the throwin starts (at the disposoal). When does the 5 second count start? When the throwin starts. Do you start the count the moment the player picks up the ball?

To illustrate that point...

Consider a ball that, after it drops through the net, hits a player in the head and it rolls to the FT line (or even midcourt) where A3 picks it up. A3 walks directly but not quickly to the endline to perform the throwin. Are you suggesting it is too late for team B to have a timeout the moment A3 picks up the ball (20-30' from the endline)? If so, you have also decided the ball is live (that's the only way B can no longer call a timeout). Are you counting 5 seconds? If the ball is live for the throwin, you should be since the only way for the ball to become live is for the throwin to have begun. If you are counting, A3 will only have about 1-2 seconds left by the time he gets OOB.

Do you really think that is what is intended or written?

Common sense and the rules both suggest that your position can't be correct.

The whole purpose behind the "at the disposal" is to prevent a team from <strike>deliberately</strike> letting the ball roll around at their feet <strike>in order to delay</strike> causing a delay (let the clock run out, set up a play, rest, etc.) after a made basket when they could easily pick it up and make the throwin.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 5th, 2005 at 05:14 AM]

The rule is clear, you choose to use an extreme example.

Under normal play when the throwing team has the ball it is too late for the scoring team to call a TO. I think most officials would agree that this is their cut off point.

The magic words in this post are COULD HAVE HAD IT. The team that is inbounding the ball can't stand around for 10 or 15 seconds arguing about who should take it out. It was at their disposal the whole time, because they COULD HAVE HAD IT in a position to make a throwin.

The rule is indeed clear. My example was extreme in order to demonstrate that very point. It is inconsistent to say that the moment the ball is picked up, it is too late but not yet begin the throwin count. The point at which it is too late for the new defensive team to call timeout is precisely the same time that the throwin count begins. I don't think anyone is advocating starting the count the moment the ball is picked up. Unless a team is delibertate delaying, you do not ever start the throwin count before they have the ball OOB in a position to make the throwin.

To do otherwide is to completely miscontrue the purpose, meaning, spirint, and intent of "at the disposal". It is only there to allow the official to start the count if the official feels the team is deliberately delaying or when the official must start the throwin without at thrower as after a timeout when the team refuses to break the huddle in time.

Camron, what about the times after a basket when the inbounding team has two or more players who just stand there and look at each other as if they each think the other is "supposed" to inbound the ball? I know you've had this happen. They're not "deliberatly" delaying, yet don't you start the count?

I think you are mostly correct in the rule interpretation, but I think there are some times you would start a count just when a team is "confused".

The count starts when the ball is at the disposal, under normal play that is when the ball comes out of the net and the throwing team controls the ball.

Again this is under normal conditions, I'm not waiting until they get OOBs to start this count.

Check out CB 4.43.3.;)

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 4th, 2005 at 07:17 PM]

I wouldn't mind seeing this rule changed, to be honest. The NBA doesn't allow a team that has just scored to be granted a time-out. I personally like that rule, b/c it eliminates exactly the kind of decision that we're talking about here. In the closing seconds of a close game, the coach is yelling "TIMEOUT!" before the ball even goes in. And then we have to judge if he requests it properly after it goes through but before it's at the other team's disposal. Just eliminate the option to request time-out after you score. While we're at it, eliminate the option for the coach to request the time-out at all. While we're at that, eliminate subs after a made FT to get rid of all those mini-TO's at the end of a game.

I know. It's not gonna happen. But I wish it would. Those subs after every single FT make the game so much longer.

I agree with this one for sure!

Agreed...doesn't have to be deliberate.

In a typcial case, it takes a player ~2 seconds to get OOB and get turned around for the throwin. Are you seriously telling me you only give them 3 seconds left from the time they could make a legal throwin to release the throwin? Sounds like a recipie for a T.

Furthermore, the casebook's only reference to "at the disposal" is for when the ball is bouncing around when no player has picked it up. The comment also mentions that the official should give teh team a moment or two in this case.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 5th, 2005 at 06:32 AM]

2 seconds to go 4 feet and turn around?

You must count like a jack-rabbit.:D

Seriously, under normal play they take the ball from the net or off the bounce and are already heading toward the boundary.

It takes a split second to register disposal and to start the count. By this time they are usually OOB and at most I'm at the open end of my one count,i.e. half way, when they get there.

By your interpretation you could have as much as 7 or 8 seconds come off the clock from the time they get control until you'd have a violation.

If they're hustling...I agree, less than a second...the gap between grabbing the ball and getting OOB will be very small. If they not hustling, it can easily be over a second...perhaps 2 or more.

So why reward them for not hustling?

Why take game time from the other team?

If it is obvious confusion causing a delay to make the throw in, I am more likely to wait for the light to come on to judge disposal.

But they get no break for not hustling, and I believe that falls under delaying and by rule the count should start.;)

Why should they be required to grab the ball as fast as possible too? There should be a reasonable speed expected.

In a parallel situation, disposal is defined in CB 8.1.1A: A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure? RULING: Yes. On free throws, the word "disposal" is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free-throw line and begin the count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free-thrower's disposal.

This (and supported by CB 6.1.2B) establishes a definition for at the disposal. It is when the official has given a team sufficient opportunity and time to be in the right spot to execute the free throw (or throwin) but have not done so on their own.

Nothing requires that they sprint to the ball and to OOB to make the throwin.

As an aside, this CB play also addresses the players playing musical lane spots we recently discussed...put the ball in play after sufficient opportunity and time has been given.

Camron:

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, there are people who are reading this thread that just will not listen to the logic of the rules that have accumulated over the years from knowledgeable officials.

MTD, Sr.

If you are interpreting disposal by the book the 5 second count is what requires they hustle.:D

You keep using case plays where the official handles the ball to illustrate disposal, but we don't normally handle the ball after a made basket.

Now I'm even more sure I'm correct.

You forgot to post your resume to add weight to your opinion.;)

Camron:

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, there are people who are reading this thread that just will not listen to the logic of the rules that have accumulated over the years from knowledgeable officials.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Mark, that's the same bullsh*t that you try to hand out to anyone that disagrees with you. You might be a little more believable if you would or could cite some rules that might back up your some of your fantasies.

If we're going to change this rule (which I'm not against), I'd like to see the NCAA rule go into effect - stop the clock after any made basket with :59.9 left in the 2nd half/OT period. Frankly, I think that change should be in effect anyways - but that's a different thread.

;)
Including 6.1.2B, all cases have one thing in common (and the official handling the ball is not it). It's that the official determines that the ball is at the thrower's disposal after the player doesn't get it and get in position when they have time and opportunity. There are NO case plays that suggest disposal is to include when the inbounds player picks up the ball alone.

Also, you have failed to define when the situation changes from "normal" to my extreme example. How far away from the bucket do they have to be when they pick up the ball before you consider it abnormal? And, where is THAT defined. (It's not). That alone should make it crystal clear that the beginning of a normal throwin doesn't not begin when the player picks up the ball while still inbounds.

The entire point that you are missing is it does not specifically define disposal for after a made basket. It leaves that up to the official's judgment.

The question being asked at the begining of this thread dealt with when the non-throwing team no longer can call a TO, and I'll wager that most officials don't use until they get OOB with the ball as the cut off point.;)

But hey, MTD agrees with you, so you have that going for you.:D

How can you then argue that the rule book clearly supports your position if it is silent on the matter.

Perhaps most do. However, I'd also wager that of those that do, most wait to start the count until the player is OOB and in a position to make the throwin. And if they are, they've made an inconsistent decision. Both actions can't be correct.

Great, that'll make my case! ;)

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 6th, 2005 at 03:44 AM]

Oh -- we're taking a poll.

In the "normal" circumstance, I wait until the player with teh ball is OOB. When the ball rolls "far away", I wait until the player with the ball is OOB.

Only when the (new) offense is "stalling" do I start before the player with the ball is OOB.

If the ball were caught directly out ot the basket, by strict interpretation, there would be only a fraction of a second for the team that just scored to request a timeout. I do not recall seeing any official that did not give more leeway than that. So how do we limit the leeway? This situation has been on this board a time or two in the past few months, and given that the rule book does not seem to provide a definite answer, I think the guidelines for interpretation that Cameron describes are reasonable and fair. I wait until the player has the ball out of bounds until I start my count and stop granting requests for timeout, with the same exception for delays that Bob and others describe.

[Edited by Rick Durkee on Jun 6th, 2005 at 10:51 AM]

Me, too.

Just to be clear, are you talking about when you will no longer grant a TO or when you will begin a 5 second count or both?

Both, of course. The criterion for starting one is the same as the criterion for ending the other.

Since starting the wager, 3-0 for allowing the timeout until the thrower is OOB.

Going back to the beginning of the thread 5-0.

Didn't count Nevada since his postion seemed a bit ambiguous to me. He did seem to imply that he'd start the count and deny the timeout once the thrower picked up the ball inbounds.

Where's my favorite beverage? ;)

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 7th, 2005 at 03:34 AM]

Camron:

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, there are people who are reading this thread that just will not listen to the logic of the rules that have accumulated over the years from knowledgeable officials.

MTD, Sr. [/B][/QUOTE]I guess that the "just will not listen" part includes a current state interpreter who is also a former member of the NFHS rules committee too, Mark.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...5&pagenumber=3

Comments?

Yes, unless the ball rolled far away (in which case I would stop the game and clock with a whistle), I would start the count and deny the TO request when the ball was picked up inbounds by a member of the throwing team.