Would anybody like to see foul reporting in the NFHS and NCAA go to reporting with 2 hands instead of with just one. I hate saying "white 21" and delay showing the 1 after I have already said it or how about "white two, one". JMO, I like saying "white 21" and showing both numbers at the same time. I can't help but be anal when it comes to basketball officiating. It is my advocation, it is my passion.

Anybody agree or disagree?

With two hands you are giving the table multiple things to look at, they have to process it left to right...we need to report it right to left...that can lead to confusion.

I frankly don't see an advantage to two hand reporting, unless your goal is to someday work in the NBA.

You must have missed his NBA Anyone thread.

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/20511

I prefer one hand

The NCAA experimented last summer with using two handed reporting. My guess is they didn't like it since I haven't heard about it since.

[Edited by ocreferee on May 24th, 2005 at 05:01 PM]

I get dinged for this but I report with 2 hands when there are double numbers.
i.e. White 44
I was on the floor with my college assignor in the crowd and we came in at 1/2 time and he said, "That was a great call on the block but what's with the 2 hand mechanic? Next thing you know you will be changing your last name to Bevetta!"
AAR

You use the proper mechanic that's applicable to the level you are officiating.

The typical NCAA process is to experiment with something either over the summer or during pre-season/non-conference games, then get the feedback and institute any new rule or mechanic the season after next...so, they experimented with two hand reporting last summer - it they're going to change it, it would happen before this next season...

I liked it...it was easy to catch on to...the right hands is for the 10's, and the left is for the one's digits...set it as you are walking and then both hands go up at once...

JR, as always, you are the model of simpletons...er, I mean of simplemindedness...uhmmm, no that's not it...the model of simplicity - that's the word I was looking for!

That's the nicest thing that you've ever said to me.

Will you bear my children?

Chalk me up as a 2-handed fan. I also will use it some college and HS games for double numbers. Sometimes an inattentive table will only see one 4 of a 44 called with one hand and a foul gets charged to the wrong person. Really, it doesn't matter, the only people who notice are supervisors and other officials. Do it the way that causes you the least amount of grief.

I guess I'm simple too because I think the least amount of grief would be caused by doing it the way the mechanics book says.
Often the problem with double numbers is:

1. Not using our voice at the table (louder)
2. Saying "four, four" instead of "forty, four"

Since we are going to the table anyway (moving or stationary, whichever the assigner wants) we should always be heard. Even when they put their head down on "forty" when they hear the "four" they should realize they have to pay attention. Of course that will not always happen. :D

I'll go with one. The foul reporting process isn't suppose to be super fast. You're suppose to slow down for a reason and that is so no confusion is caused at the table and they record the proper information.

Not that my opinion matters much on this subject, but I like using two hands. It's not hard at all and I don't think there would be any confusion at the table.

When in Rome
 

An evaluator once wrote me up for holding my elbow (yes, with the other hand) when I showed two for two shots.

If evaluators are that picky, then use the signal style you're supposed to use.

Since I don't care to go anywhere, I vary my style from time to time. But if I do use two hands, I first put the the right hand (with say 4 fingers), then the left after a small delay (with say 4 fingers), for #44.

Guys I use 2 hands all the time except in my assosciation games and games where my partner wants to use one hand. I don't do it because it is faster I do it because I feel while I am saying "red 23" the bookeeper sees both numbers instead of their being a delay on the three after you have done said it. I hate saying "red two, three", with a passion, don't know why I just do. I do agree it would cause some confusion though because the NBA is the only group of officials that use this but that is because there are only about 60 officials, whereas there are about 200 in my local assosciation. I think alot of guys would have problems going right to left on their hands so the bookeeper could read left to right.

I just threw this around for some feedback on what people thought. Good insights.

I never say "red two, three" I just say "red" - give the hand signal for the complete number - then say "twenty-three". If it's loud (not that any of my games get loud) I'll say the number again. If the scorer looks at me like I have 2 heads I'll repeat it. Always works.

Now, imagine you're used to receiving numbers given with 1 hand, and some young buck ambles up and gives the number with 2 hands. Ya know what I'm gonna do as you walk away?

Hooooooooonnnnkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Hey ref, what was that number again?"

I say "two-three." I think it is better than hearing "twenty-three" or "thirteen." The words "twenty, thirty, forty" all sound the same if there is a lot going on as it relates to noise. I think saying the numbers that way separates the numbers and simplifies what the scorer hears and sees. I think it is also simple for the official so you know exactly what you said.

Then again that is just my opinion.

Peace

"Lock and load", as we were told at camp. It was so easy, even I caught on after three days. If I can do it anyone can, eh, DJ?

If this is the case, I think you would insist on calling "by the book," including standard signals and reporting. It's not really a matter of if you like it that way, but if you conform to what's expected (by those who know proper mechanics).

My pet peeves (for HS games):
The three point signal (who signals when and how) with the added unnecessary "two point signal."

The "tip" signal.

The "wider than 6 feet closely guarded" signal.

Instead of pointing and stating "Blue," yelling some nonsense like "stays here," "going the other way," or
"off Red."

Ewwwwwwwwwwww....

Is that a "no"?

Or a "maybe"?

The preliminary signal used by the NBA is superior in my opinion than the signal for high school and college. If the shooter's foot is one the line I will signal two while they are shooting.

I don't hate the "tip" signal because there is no such signal. :D

The "not" closely guarded signal is OK I guess.

I was taught by my mentors to say the color instead of "that way" or "stay here." KISS

Old school again
 

Since I was trained old school way back, I prefer one hand.

I was under the assumption that the sole reason for using one hand was to make the signal clear to the table. Using two hands is more than I can handle.

Verbally, I was trained to say, "white, 2-3", not white twentythree. Again, this was to make the communication clear to the table. Remember, with HS play, you usually get little johnny, or little suzie doing the book inbetween blowing bubbles. The vast majority of HS play does not involve paid scorekeepers as in the college game.

Since moving to the south, I can also understand why one might not want to say twentythree. Accents and such can make it difficult to understand.

Again, the purpose is to get officials to slow down when reporting. I guess it can be done effectively with two hands, but I've seen plenty of situations where the official reports the foul so quickly and then upon us switching, the table asks me, "what did he say?"

Also, I am seeing the reporting area move all over the place especially when working 3 whistle crews. From the baseline, from the corner, from midcourt, basically all over the place. This is not the way I was trained nor is it part of the Fed mechanics manual. Frankly, it is scary seeing some of the reporting techniques I've witnessed over the last 9 months. Then again, it might just be down here in the south. I've now worked in two southern states, and the reporting is all over the place, one hand, two hands, one digit, rapid fire, and one guy used to draw the numbers in the air!

So, I can understand why the Fed has a mechanic manual, and why standard mechanics are so important. If you don't think so, try moving to another state and or geographical area and work with people who have their own way of doing things.

goose

Re: Old school again
 

Hey, I kinda like that! Now, did he "draw" them backwards so the table can see them correctly?

I'm a young guy (as far as I know...), but I prefer the single hand as well. We haven't heard from too many table people on this, but from the couple of times I was a table person I remember looking for the single hand was easier. In HS especially, the table personnel are usually volunteers, (parents or students), and we need to make sure their job is as easy as possible. A good table will not make us look better, but a bad table will make us look bad.

That is a most definite "NO"...always knew there was something wrong about you Yankees fans...

Speaking of that...where's Mick?

I wanted to thank him for letting his Tigers come out & play with the Yankees yesterday...

Ok, ok, let's get this thread back on topic.

When the children are born, will they need to be held with one hand, or two?

Well, I'm short...and JR's ugly...so if we did have offspring, I think the Dr. would take one look at that offspring and use both hands to start slapping us...

What a strange topic...

And as I said before, I like the two-hand reporting...it's simple, not confusing, and takes less time...

Well, I'm short...and JR's ugly...so if we did have offspring... [/B][/QUOTE]It'll look like Chuck? :eek:

It'll look like Chuck? :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, but with a very bad attitude...

http://www.comingupforair.net/portfo...y/squirrel.jpg

That would be Mendy Rudolph, who's in the NBA Hall of Fame(I think).He trained Earl Strom. He was my idol as a young official way back when I started out. Just an amazing presence on the court- seemed to get into about 10% of the arguments that the other officials got into. He just had that much respect from the players and coaches. Mendy was supposedly credited as being the "father" of the modern signalling system. He was one of the first officials(if not the first) to use their hands to denote numbers. The only number that he actually "drew" in the air was "0". He would make several circles in the air with the forefinger of the hand he was using to give that number.

I can think of a better choice of finger to gesture with sometimes.

More useless info for people with too much off-season time on their hands.:D.

Yeah, but with a very bad attitude...

[/B][/QUOTE]Oh, like......
http://media.funny.co.uk/files/2729.jpg

The preceeding announcements have been brought to you by the NABCM (National Association of Birth Control Manufacturers).

Oh, like......
[/B][/QUOTE]

...yeah...and he'll obviously end up in the gutter...

http://www.bannedhosting.com/forums/Owned-Squirrel.jpg

It'll look like Chuck? :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]I'm just surprised that it took over an hour for somebody to make that reply!

My $.02
 

The number "four, four" is not in the scorebook. Neither is "two, three" or "one, five." The numbers 44, 23, and 15 are in the book. 9 out of 10 scorers that I've asked have told me they would rather have the number as it is read. The mind processes "twenty three" much better than "two, three." And if I'm not mistaken, that's the method the NFHS Officials Manual suggests.

As for hands, I've signaled with two hands during AAU games for the past three years. I've yet to have a scorer call me back to the table. Perhaps it's not for everyone but I think it works. However, I don't see it happening in NFHS. The thing about two hands is that it makes it easier to do while moving. I don't think the NFHS is going to change their stance on stopping while reporting, any time soon.

Re: My $.02
 

Atleast they won't change until NCAA men's mechanics go there first. The NCAA women are the progressive group, followed by the men, and eventually trickling down to the NF.

Re: My $.02
 

I took a quick look through my manual and it just says to report the number. It doesn't say whether to use "twenty-three" or "two-three". But my manual is all screwed up by IAABO's color charts and stuff. So I don't know if the straight FED manual says anything differently.

Couldn't agree more.

Re: Re: My $.02
 

I'm on the side of reporting it as "twenty-three". It's a lot more natural and far easier to process by the listener(as others have said). Why would anyone ever say "twenty-three" for any other usage if it were more natural?

With "two" "three", you could miss either half and not have a clue that anything was amiss. With "twenty-three", there's a high probabililty that more will follow the "twenty".

In fact "two" "three" is not A number. It's two numbers. ;)

While we're talking about reporting: color first! Then number. The scorer is going to want to know which page to look on before they need to find the line. With number first, they must remember the number until after the color is given, find the correct page, then retrieve the number from the memory banks, and then record the foul...increasing the likelihood of them getting the number wrong or forgetting it.

Re: Re: My $.02
 

Exactly.

"Four, four" is not a number.

"Forty four" is. :)

Re: Re: Re: My $.02
 

This is how we're instructed here in Portland. The rationale is that, if you say "four, four" the scorekeeper might hear only the first "four" and give the foul to the wrong player. If you say "Forty - four" he'll keep listening after the "forty..." since he'll know you're not finished.

Regardless of which way it's done, I think it's smart to be sure you keep the scorekeeper looking at you the whole time. You look at their eyes, and be sure they've seen what you're trying to communicate. If you do that, it doesn't matter nearly as much how you move your hands.

I agree with every point everybody has made but let's get back to the initial question. 1 hand or 2? Like I said at the first if you report "twenty-three" with one hand you announce "twenty-three" and after you have said the whole number you have to show the last number after you have already said the whole thing, so why not announce the number along with raising both hands with the first number on the right hand and the second number on the left hand.

JMHO though. I would love to hear more comments from everyone. I have no problem using one hand I just prefer two. IMO it just makes things easier and more visible, not faster, but easier and more invisible.

I'm not certain so someone can tell me if this is right. when using one hand don't most supervisors want you to report the number between your shoulders and the upper part of the abdomen.

When you use two hands you report in the "box" which starts from your shoulders and extends to just above the top of your head.

I have always reported with one hand. I have always said "four four" for 44 or "three two" for 32. Although I must say that I do say "eleven" don't know why. If I have a double number, i.e 44, I use one hand and flip it over for the second number. My personal preference is to stop somwhere on the court for the reporting, I don't like reporting on the fly unless I am instructed to do so, too many variables. Plus, stopping usually calls the attention of the table. I have also found that using a strong voice does wonders to avoid table confusion. I can never remember having the table ask me to repeat a number, although I have called a foul on a wrong number a few times; but I guess my reporting was good enough!

Not to muddy the waters, but I always find myself looking at the timekeeper instead of the scorer when I report. Even when I make initial eye contact with the scorer, I end up looking at the timekeeper. Does anyone else do that?

That depends. There are other variables that effect who I look at. Such as, are there cheerleaders?

Someone might have already mentioned this but what do you do with the fool wearing the number 78? You can't make a 7 with one hand, unless we use sign language or something. :D

In Fed games, they're illegal. In rec, who cares whether you use one hand or two? The scorekeeper is too busy fixing her daughter's ponytail, anyway.

I'll jump in here

I would like to see 2 hands but that also means that we need to be able to report on the move instead of going to the reporting box. I feel that the once the game has been interrupted the ball needs to get back into play faster... 2 habd speeds things up a hair, so does reporting while moving, but NF needs to look at other things as well.

The NBA has great scorekeepers who do it well, that is not the case in high school and so we get saddled with stuff because we attempt to communicate with a less trained bunc...The reason that many of the things we do as officials is because someone thinks that scorekeepers at the high school level are not the sharpest bunch. or that officials are not the sharpest tacks ether(sometimes they are right) What we have is still a lot of tradition thst maintains interruptions....

1) eliminating the switch when the foul is called in the backcourt...(eliminate the long switch)

2) stop putting the ball in on the baeline and adopt the NBA go to the sideline.. ( works well woth # 1)

3) take out all the preliminary signal junk unless the call needs to be sold

There are other things that are just plain annoying...
4) stop making us raise our open hand on evey violation, we know it does not stop the clock.

5) why do we have an open hand raised when the ball is coming in?

Gee, Kelvin, don't hold back so. It's bad for your heart. Go ahead. Let it all out. Tell us how you really feel.

Yeah, but you always end up with the kid with the taped number on the back or the kid with his brother's friend's nephew's soccer jersey because he left his at home...

I have never had a number on the jersey that included a 6,7,8,or 9, in a HS game, although I've recently had a summer league game where a kid was #101.

This could be a good thing in a running clock game.

"Blue, O-o-n-n-n-e-e h-h-h-u-u-n-d-d-r-r-r-e-e-e-d-d , a-a-a-n-n-d- , o-o-n-n-n-e-e. Push. Got that, table? O-o-n-n-n-e-e h-h-h-u-u-n-d-d-r-r-r-e-e-e-d-d , a-a-a-n-n-d- , o-o-n-n-n-e-e..."

Even someone as out of shape as me would have no trouble in a game like that!

Who is this kelvin green guy. You are my new best friend. You just said everything that I wanted to say, but I have been trying to take a back seat approach to this forum and just listen and learn.

By the way in my assosciation we have eliminated the long swithch.

KELVIN YOU ARE THE MAN!!!!

The question remains...what would you do? They still get to play with an illegal number...just at the cost of a T. So, the moment they check in, you're going to be reporting a foul on #78 (by the book).

I could go with #1 and #2 without any question.

#3 does server to communicate a little more to your partners...I could give it up without a fuss.

#4...it does tell your partner what class of infraction you have....good for double whistles.

#5. Gotta make some signal for the timer to start the clock. The hand up that falls at the first touch give the timer something clear to focus on rather than a hand that flashes up and down in a moment. Since there must be a signal to start the clock, do you have a better one?

Well, since it can't be done with one hand either, it's not really a valid question...

If you believe that the normal average timer is watching for the hand to chop instead of when THEY see the ball touched to start the clock, I guess you believe in the easter bunny too. :) Reality is, regardless of what they are told before the game, the timer works the clock on whne s/he perceives the ball is touched. Maybe that is why at the progressive upper levels (NBA,WNBA,NCAA women) the hand is not up on the throw-in. There is a count and a chop of some kind with the same hand when it is touched, not that the chop is looked at during these games either

bigwhistle, you are partially right. In the upper level games the officials start the clock with precision time and stop the clock with the whistle. That is one reason they don't have the hand up but you are right, they aren't looking at us anyway.

I worked multiple AAU games at a tourney last weekend. There were 4 courts going at once, side by side, with no partitions. The games were 17U - 13U boys, all with noisy and enthusiastic (yeah right) parents and coaches.

These are not the usual circumstances for a college or pro ref, or even most HS refs. However, in this situation, with many whistles and continuous noise, my partner's "hand up" was very helpful in determining if it was actually HIS whistle. The most communication difficulty I had was with a partner who did not stop clock with hand up (nor did he make eye contact). Not a college ref, but a lazy HS one.

Sure it can. Give the sign language signal for #7, and then for #8. Each of those only takes one hand.

Not all NCAA Conferences use the Precision Timing System. I know the Big Ten did not use the PTS this year. I do not think most of the Big 12 did either.

Agreed and I knew that. I'll try again.

Big whistle, when you see a men's D1 game and the NBA where the officials are using one hand to count and chop it is because they are using the precision time system. There could be some exceptions to this that I can't think of right now.

I think I'm covered now. :D

Then you can do it two-handed also, can't you? Sign the 7 with the right hand and the 8 with the left hand...

Man, we are cheaters!

I'm sure they'll just add this image to the signals chart next year. :D

http://members.surfeu.fi/deaf/Numbers.jpg
- http://members.surfeu.fi/deaf/Numbers.jpg

What sign language is that?!? It's not ASL, nor SEE. by the "eu" in the link I wonder if it's a different language than English?

I've noticed far too many refs who do that. It's even worse when it happens at the D-I level, where I (as the scorer) am the ONLY person at the table wearing a striped shirt!

As someone who's reffed intramurals for the past several years, it's simple. Report the number as "seventy-eight." And show seven fingers, then eight fingers (two hands together).

You have to think a bit more, but it doesn't take too long to get the hang of it.

Why don't we go back to the days where the offender raised his/her hand? Most of the time it appears we are confirming what the scorer is about ready to write. I say "White. Two. Two." There is a guy around here who uses 2 hands and he looks like a clown because he has a wristwatch on one wrist and a bracelet on the other. And there is no way I am going to do ANYTHING that resembles him.

As a scorer, I'm going to chime in on the main issue here.

I actually prefer the 2 handed signal, as long as it is done consistently and CORRECTLY. Knowing my fair share of HS scorers, I'd be very wary about using it in a high school game.

As to the secondary question ("two-four" or "twenty-four"), I prefer for the official to state the entire number. First, while I am not the type of scorer who immediately turns away, once every few hundred fouls, the cute dancer on the sideline is going to catch my eye, or I will somehow miss the second part of the number. More importantly, though, I find it prevents problems with the number of free-throws. If white 21 fouls, I may hear it as white #2, shooting 1. (The problems are obvious when #11 fouls.)

This argument seems irrelevent because regardless of how you say 21 you're still going to end with "one." Either "two one" or "twenty-one."

But your other points make sense. :)

How long before 2 hands makes it to the college level? HS level?

I say it will be in college in 5 years and HS in 10 years? I would love if it came a lot sooner if it were me. I've seen no negatives besides at the lower levels there being an inexperienced bookeeper, and moving while reporting which I think supervisors will come around to, eventually.

NCAA women, 2-3 years (they already report on the move). NCAA men, 20-30 years. FED, 200-300 years.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
NCAA women, 2-3 years (they already report on the move)[/QUOTE

I think that's the best mechanic (as evidenced by the fact that I do it waaaaay too often).