Right-click and "save target as" the play called Handcheck.

http://thomass2004.home.comcast.net/

Would you call:

A. Handcheck
B. Push (from stepping on the feet)
C. No call

I don't think it matters what you call it as long you have a foul on the defender. B1 definitely handchecked A1 on the drive, but it looked like A1 kept his path. Once A1 is knocked off the path, you have to take the foul, since the handcheck definitely contributed. JMO, as always.

In high school I would have had a handcheck because the kid was pushing him out. In college though I think you could be O.k. and I emphasize o.k. with a handcheck. You could have had a trip because that is a legal call and signal in the college mechanics, as far as mechanics go I would not have a push. I also think you would have been alright with a no call here as well.

Another good one, Tom!
I'm blowing the handcheck before the trip.
mick

I have a push. Once the defender extended the arm out which I observed happening. It would have been the same thing if the offensive extended the arm out on a drive(PC).

Only, apparently, in the SEC.

I probably would have come up with a block.

Thanks Bob, I thought I missed a new signal or something. :D refTN, I'm just curious and I mean just curious, how many college camps have you been to and how many college games have you done? Like I said I'm just curious.

[Edited by tomegun on May 24th, 2005 at 01:52 PM]

C'mon refTN!
Ya can't have it all ways.
Make a call... or not!
You've got 0.50 seconds! :)
mick

In this clip, both player tried to use their arm to slow opponent down. Do you want to whistle them both for that, or only the defender? (assuming there is no stepping on the foot part)

Thanks.

It seems like everytime you look at a play you see something new. The C should have taken a few steps up and this play would have opened up to him a lot sooner. He was a little too stationary.

Defender. I go with push. The offensive player is H$S past the defender which pushes him.

Really?? Wow...the offensive player ends up traveling AND going oob because of the contact by the defender...so now we just call the oob and give the ball back to the defense? Good luck with that...

In my mind - it's a handcheck...the NCAA manual is very clear that using the back of the hand to try to redirect the offensive play (dislodge, displace, etc) is a handcheck...

I agree, when I first watched it I don't think the C had the angle to see the initial handcheck. I probably would have passed on the handcheck but definitely called a block when he stepped on his feet.

Men's Hand-Checking
a. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent it is a personal foul.

Handcheck followed by a footcheck.......

I don't care what you end up calling it, as long as you make some kinda foul call on the defender.

I believe at the time that the fouled was called, you have to come up with a push.
I also believe that a no call on a hand-check was correct.
I feel that if the C comes up with anything early it should be a hold. That is just my personal interpretation of a hand-check.(Fine line for me)
It would've been nice if the C could've taken a big step down as the play goes through, although he may have straight-lined himself even more if he had done that.
If I were completely anal in my evaluation, I might ding him for not even glancing at the play going on at the elbow, though the play did start on the boundary of his primary and there was really nothing going on at the elbow, he watched the ball all the way down. I would assume if I was the C that the L or T might be able to help out if anything goes on with that cluster at the FT line.
I really don't have a problem with the way it was handled.
As I say - I have never missed one from the stands!!
BTW - Does anyone know if that guard was hurt bad? It looked nasty.
AAR

He road him with the forearm = Handcheck.

He redirected him by extending that forearm = Push.

He tripped him while moving toward the offense = Block.

Was there ANYTHING legal done by the defender in this play?

tomegun I have not done a one yet and like I said above I apologize for saying that tripping was a legal signal in college. I am a huge advocate of reading my rulebook and casebook and in doing so I read NFHS, NCAA (for men and women), and NBA. Sometimes and mix and match them. I apologize.

To answer your question though I have done no college games and I am going to IIOC camp (of course since I love the SEC so much) this year. It is my first one.

My fault Bob that is just an NBA signal. I apologize

Mick I am just saying I can see where you can have any of those, but as for me I would have probably came with a foul because the initial showed that he was handchecking which at that level those kids can handle, but once the defender stepped on his foot I am coming with a foul.

To answer your question though I have done no college games and I am going to IIOC camp (of course since I love the SEC so much) this year. It is my first one. [/B][/QUOTE]Have you ever done a high school varsity game? Or high school at any level?

Just wondering.

The biggest and most obvious foul is the block (with the foot).

The handcheck is marginal and didn't appear to be redirecting the dribbler. In fact, the dribbler seemed be turning towards the basket just as he wanted. Could be a handcheck but not "obvious".

It look like there was no force involved in the extension of the arm...not much there...again not "obvious".

AAR, you are right about the C moving except moving down could have made things worse. He should have taken steps up towards the top of the key and the whole play would have opened up.

It was definately hand-checking first. The player was not permitted to go from A to B. He was re-directed to C and this is a foul. If the hand-check is missed then take your pick. I like a push more than a block for the trip.

refTN, I asked the question because you seem to be in the information giving stage instead of the information gathering stage. Without game experience (rec, high school, camps and anything else you can do) some of what is said you can only comment on in theory. If your game experience has all been good then you still have some fires to go through. Experience, rules knowledge and common sense help us arrive at a place where we are comfortable on the court. When you mentioned the trip mechanic I looked it up before posting. Once you gain experience it will/should be your responsibility to give out good information when asked. This includes telling someone you will look something up or "I don't know." Not coming down on you because you obviously have a passion for the game. Just trying to get you to slow down a little.

Trail mentality, baby. Somebody's been camping! :)

tomegun I know you might not believe this, but this is how I learn. I throw out topics and learn from them. I put my two cents in and get hammered on, and I learn from them. I know it is probably not the best way to do it, but this is how I do it. From all the post that I have read of yours, you seem like you have been doing this for a while and I totally respect you and your insights and I learn from them all. Anytime I start a thread or decide to have some input in a thread do not be afraid to bust me, it just makes me better and that is exactly what I want to be is better. I don't want to be better, I want to be the best.

To answer somebody's earlier question yes I have done high school games but not during a regular season and not 3-man. I started reffing a year ago and I have done around 300 games. I have seen everything from fights to parents coming onto the floor and trying to say crap to other players right in their face.

Tomegun I apologize for being the way that I am, I will seriously try to sit back and just listen a little more.

By the way tomegun if you work college ball I would love to borrow your CCA manual from 04-05 because I need it to take to camp and everywhere that sells them stopped selling the 04-05 manual and started taking backorders for the 05-06 manual. If you could help that would be great. I would pay for all the shipping or whatever needs to be paid for.

[Edited by refTN on May 24th, 2005 at 07:54 PM]

I think the defender should have been called for "over the foot".

Not fer nuthin but I wouldn't worry about taking the cca manual to camp at this point if I were you.

It's going to be obvious where you are within the first 5 minutes of your very first game. Hopefully this camp you're attending is a teaching camp. If it is go there to learn, not impress.

:)

Dan it says in the invitation I got that we need to bring our cca manual and I do not have one.

I've never been told to bring more than stripes, shorts, sneakers, sheets and a pillow. (Oh yeah, and a check.)

Why don't you email me.

Dan let me tell you what it tells you to bring:

officiating gear, casual wear, personal toilet items, four video tapes, pen and pad, pre-game board, three-man manual, rule book, sheets, blanket, towels and pillow. I narrowed it down a little bit.

refTN, I think you will be OK without the manual. Also, I do have some experience but I do make mistakes and I'm still trying to have that perfect game. I can tell you are into this and that is great. Always be aware of your environment. If you say the wrong things at the right time it could be tough to recover. We go back and forth all the time on the board without any real damage. :D Your aspirations are tough and you will have to be on your toes all the time.

What - no fishnets????

Moving back to the original topic, did it take everyone 25 minutes to download the clip? What did I do wrong?

...25 minutes later...

Looks like a no-brainer to me. Defender didn't have legal guarding position, defender's actions caused the trip and the oob, dribbler didn't initiate contact.

It took a while for me to download too. Seemed like the server providig the clip was slow.

I got handcheck first and foremost.

If the handcheck is passed on then there should be either push or block depending on the angle of the calling official. Most of all, Call Something! (against the D)