The new TC foul has brought some uncertainty (well, it has increased the uncertainty!) in my mind. Here are my questions.

1) A1 drives to the basket and begins her shooting motion. Before the ball is released, A2 fouls B2. Ball is dead, no shot? B gets ball oob?

2) A1 drives to the basket, and after releasing the ball on a shot, contacts B1. PC, right? Ball is dead, B gets ball oob?

3) A1 drives to the basket and she releases the ball on a shot. Then A2 fouls B2. Basket counts if it goes, then and B gets the ball oob? If it doesn't go, play is killed and B gets ball oob?

4) So PC and TC are different if the foul happens after the release? PC kills the ball, TC doesn't. Correct?

5) And continuous motion does not apply to TC?

No, wait. Continuous motion DOES apply to TC?

But if the shooter...

no the foul is off-ball...

AUGH!! I'm so confused!

Juulie,

Nothing changes except any foul by a team in control does not shoot FTs. What would you do if this rule was not in place as it relates to the basket counting? The reason for this rule is not shoot FTs on these kinds of fouls, not to change the other rules already in place.

Peace

Juulie,

For #4 - when does team control end?

JRut seems to have it right. You may want to take a look at the NCAA rulebook to get a better understanding of team control fouls.

Of course, until the actual rulebook comes out, we're all speculating a bit.

Yes, that's very true.

One thing that confuses me is that the college rule for PC is different for men and women as it relates to contact after the shot is released, right?

The other thing I'm having trouble with is that it just starts to feel as though PC and TC will become the same, and then I get vertigo trying to switch back to two different things.

Also, the comments on the NFHS website say that "..the change makes the penalty consistent for a player-control foul and a team-control foul. In addition, the change reduces delays in the game. The rule only applies when a foul occurs by the team in control. By rule, there is no team control during a throw-in, jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal." So, since there's no team control after the ball is released on a shot, then fouls by the shooting team are not TC, right? Which means we shoot if we're in the bonus? It gets very confusing!

Team control has not changed. If Team A fouls while they have team control, Team B does not shoot FTs. That's the only thing that has changed. You don't need to change anything else with the way you've handled foul situations. You simply have to know if there was TC when the foul occurred, just like you had to know if a player had committed a PC foul or if he had passed the ball before contact.

Yes, but that does not change the application of the rule. Men's basketball just does not have the same airborne shooter rule. If the ball is released, you have no team control. It is that simple.

Juulie, you really are think about this too much. This rule is only to reduce the FT opportunities for the team that was fouled by the team in control. If the all is shot and you have a rebounding foul, the same rules apply as normal. All you are determining is whether you shoot FTs or not. That is why the NF says that PC and TC fouls will be consistently applied.

Peace

No different from last year. Continuous motion only applies when the defense commits a foul. So if A2 commits a foul before A1 releases the ball, we have an immediate dead ball. And the ball is awarded to B OOB.

The only difference from last year is, of course, that if B is in the bonus, they will not shoot FTs this year.


No different from last year.


No different from last year. (Sensing a theme here? :) ) Since the ball is in the air, we count it if it goes. If it doesn't go in, then the ball is awarded to B OOB or (since there's no team control) B2 shoots FTs if B is in the bonus.


Not exactly. The better way to think about it is that there is no TC foul after the release. Why? Because there is no team control after the release.

Continuous motion does not apply to any foul that is committed by a member of the offensive team. Continuous motion only applies when a defender commits a foul.

If you have a foul on the shooter after release, the hoop counts if it goes in NCAA men, but not in NCAA women - not sure which interpretation NFHS is picking up.

If there is a personal foul by either team after release, bonus shots are awarded.

I had a sitch where A1 shot a three-pointer, and B2 fouled A2 just after the shot was released. The basket went, A was in double bonus, A2 shot a pair and got a five-point play.

Similarly, I also had the same situation, except it was A2 who fouled B2. We counted the three, went to the other end and shot twice.

What do you mean "picking up." The TC foul in the NCAA did not change as a result of this rule. The NF will keep the
same interpretation they always have had.

Peace

This doesn't really matter to the PC/TC discussion, does it? NCAA men and women differ in the PC/airborne shooter rule, but they are the same in all applications of the TC foul rule.

Someone asked about foul on the shooter after release...maybe I misinterpreted the question.

Bottom line here, IMO, is that Fed is simplifying the PC/TC rule for you. I still remember having the pass-n-crash, and sorting out foul, bonus, shooter, blah blah blah. Much simpler now :)

Not to harp on it, Juulie but it is really simple if you think of it like this:

One foul with an exception for an airborne shooter.

Concentrate on 4-12 and you should not have any problems.

Okay, you make it sound easy, but I'm not convinced.

If the ball is released and then there's a foul by a player who was on offense before the release, then do we shoot ft's (assuming we're in the bonus)? If it's the shooter, no. But what about away from the ball? Since there's no team control after the release, it's not a TC foul? To me this sounds more complicated, not more simple.

If there is no team control, you cannot have a team control foul. It is just that simple. Do not confuse this with a PC foul. They are only the same as it relates to not shooting FTs.

You are going to look back on this conversation and laugh when you realize how easy this rule is. ;)

Peace

Jeff -- I have very few natural talents, but one of them is making things complicated. I think that's more a matter for pity than laughter, don't you?! :D

Hmm... that is a talent after all. Ahaa, I knew I had something to feel good about myself.

Worked with the new rules and POE this weekend. Basically, Jeff is right. The TC rule is only put in for the pass-and-crash, and illegal screen. Pass-and-crash is still team control, as is illegal screen. All others remain the same.

This is very helpful. Thanks. You give me hope that I might be able to adjust.

I've been going to 3-whistle camps and clinics for three years now, and this past weekend I am just starting to feel like I'm getting a clue. Hopefully, this rules change won't take as long!

If you can handle being a mom and wife, this will be nothing!

What about displacement by the post player?

What about setting a legal screen than grabbing the defender to slow them down?

What about a push on a rebound AFTER another player secures the rebound?

Actually what it is, is ANY common foul committed by the offense when they have team control including fouls committed by an airborne shooter after release.

[Edited by blindzebra on May 16th, 2005 at 02:18 PM]

Realizing that my last post probably sent Juulie back over the edge, I'll try to save her.:D

The only plays that are going to cause you to actually think are:

A loose ball and fouls by team A near the point where team B gains control. Solution, did B have the ball before the foul? If you answer no, TC foul.

Fouls during rebounding after a player on team A secures the rebound, not during tapping. Solution, did A1 have the ball before the foul? If you answer yes, TC foul.

Fouls away from the ball near the time of release of the shot. Solution, was the try released before the foul? If you or your partner(s) answer no, TC foul.

Hope that helps.

IMO, it depends on who committed the offensive foul. TC applies to those on offense who do not have possession of the ball and PC would apply only to the offensive player who is in control of the basketball. Control ends on the release, correct?

What depends on who committed the foul? In neither case is the defense awarded FTs. So any further distinction doesn't seem to be that big a deal to me.

This rule seems even easier to understand than the college code. The NF does not seem like they are even using the throw-in administration as part of the application of this rule. So every time a team is in control of the ball and commits a foul, then you do not shoot FTs. So if you know when a team is in control, then this rule should be very easy to understand.

Peace

You can have a team control foul without player control, but you cannot have a player control foul without team control...with the exception of an airborne shooter. The fouls, by rule, are handled the same way, so why sweat the details?

Just read 4-12 and all is well.:D

I'm starting to get it. So on a throw-in, there's no team control, ft's if the bonus applies. After the release of a shot, no team control, ft's if the bonus applies. OTherwise, turn-over. Hmmmm... is it too early in the summer to add this to Padgett's list?