The clip is labeled "block or charge?" http://thomass2004.home.comcast.net/

Try to make a decision after viewing it once (this is what we were originally told to do).

Page not foune error
 

Doo doo doo.

404 :(

Edit: I found the problem, your main HTML page links to the file

http://thomass2004.home.comcast.net/...cokcharge.mpeg

when it should really point to:

http://thomass2004.home.comcast.net/...ockcharge.mpeg

Notice the spelling of "block" ;) I make webpages myself and debugging is more than 50% of the work in computer programming. Now let me view the clip. ;)

My initial inclination was to go with a block. Then after watching it in slow motion I think I would stick with that ruling. I also noticed afterwards that's what the lead called as well. But man. that was pretty close, it could go either way. Just as long as you call something.

[Edited by brainbrian on Apr 28th, 2005 at 09:39 PM]

I have a charge or PC foul.

The defender did nothing but move laterally, which they can by rule when contact took place. I think this gets called a block many times, because we do not referee the defense or it would just be easy to call a block on this close call.

This is just my opinion. I think some will disagree.

Peace

Actually, after reading the rules on a legal guarding position, I might give them the charge. Rule 4-20, to obtain a legal guarding position

1. No minimum distance is required
2. Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.
3. The guard must have both feet touching the floor
4. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent
5. No time distance is required to obtain an initial legal position

But I'll still stand behind my call that if this was a game I probably would have went with a block before.

Defense was never set
 

It looked like he never had a LGP. Block

Still moving when the offensive player left his feet. Block.

Re: Defense was never set
 

Why do you say that?

Block.

Defender adjusts his position after shooter leaves the floor.

Another toughie, though...

Re: Page not foune error
 

Thanks, fixed the page.

I'm going to have to agree with the L on this one.

Block.
 

Shooter trying to avoid.
Contact forced by defender.

Block all day long. Defender still moving -- caused the contact. Great call by the Lead.

the view from behind which is close to the view the L had showed the D moved into where O jumped and did not beat him to the spot. do do do doot da doooo...BLOCK!

Very close one, but it looked to me like the defender moved to the side <i> after </i> the shooter was airborne. Block. Almost a coin flip call.

Z

I had a block as well. I saw the defender still moving laterally after the offensive player left his feet, and contact appeared to be more on the defender's left shoulder rather than direct in the torso. That combination of factors seemed to trigger my reaction that the defender was responsible for the contact.

These are good discussion videos; keep 'em coming!

Block - the defender's left shoulder is moving into the offensive player, and the defender is clearly initiating contact.

Block!

Re: Re: Defense was never set
 

Because it's true.

The fact that the defender is moving has nothing to do with this call. A defender can draw a PC foul while moving. But pair the movement with the fact that the defender never established legal guarding position, except perhaps after the offensive player had already left the floor in a shot attempt, and it makes this one an easy block call.

I'm going block on this one. As others have said, the defender initiated the contact. At the camp I attended a couple of weeks ago, Rick Hartzell was saying that he looks at where the offensive player hits the defender. If he/she gets them square in the chest, he's going PC, if they contact any other part of the body, he's going block. I thought that was a nice and easy way to look at this type of play.

Some of you have said that the defender "initiated contact" on this play. While the defender's right foot is sliding to the left and the left foot stays where it's at, the defender definitely does not initiate contact. Make no mistake that the offensive player initiated the contact here.
I would probably have come up with PC on this one because that is what I usually do in bang bang plays and I find it hard to reward offensive players that come in out of control. However, I certainly would not have a problem explaining a block call here nor would I have a problem supporting my partners going block here.
Thanx T-Gun
AAR

Block and it's not even close. Contact was on the shoulder and arm that got stuck out just a bit to get contact.

Just for Dan, and he flopped too.:D

Hi BZ!

http://www.camarov6.com/ubb/graemlins/wavey.gif

Block. Shoulder into airborne shooter after A1 left his feet.

I like the travel on the first clip, and the no call by the C.

<FONT COLOR=RED>BLOCK</FONT>

I agree this isn't even close.

The defender <em><font color=green>had</font></em> LGP. He was facing the opponent. He was in his path. He had both feet down 2-3 times between when the dribbler was at the top of the key and the point of contact. He was moving laterally with no component of movement towards the dribbler.

However, the dribbler picked up the ball and jumped. The defender was still moving laterally after that point...and such that it increase the amount of contact (not moving out of the path).

Re: Re: Re: Defense was never set
 

I disagree, the defender did have a LGP and this is definitely a block.

Agree.

NBA "Basic Principles" regarding "Block-charge":

"A defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his shooting motion."

Therefore, even if the defender has LGP, he is not permitted to keep moving into the path of offensive player, once the habitual motion of a layup starts, in this case.

Thanks.

ysong,

<U>RE: NBA "Basic Principles"</U>
When, exactly, does "the habitual motion of a layup start?
mick

No idea.

Also, when exactly does "his shooting motion" start? But I don't want to question Stern publicly unless I have $50,000 to spare.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
Generally, when the player picks up the dribble; or when the ball is "gathered" for the shot.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by mick Quote: Originally posted by ysong <U>RE: NBA "Basic Principles"</U> When, exactly, does "the habitual motion of a layup start? mick Generally, when the player picks up the dribble; or when the ball is "gathered" for the shot.

Thanks, Chuck.

<I>A player fakes a shot, gets fouled, and <U>then</U> begins his "actual habitual motion" and is awarded shots.</I>

I would have thought the "NBA Habitual Motion" may start when the player thinks about shooting "immediately after" he is fouled.
mick

I/m with JRut on this one. IMO, there was LGP and the appearance of the defender moving into the path of the shooter is nothing but his right foot being moved under his body to steady himself. Look and you will see the left foot is planted squarely. Although I must admit is is a close one, but I got a "headache" (PC) and going the other way with it.

Or maybe <I>"A player fakes a shot, sees a foul is imminent when the defender is on his way to fall on him, <U>then</U> begins his "actual habitual motion" and is awarded shots."</I>

Good calls. the rewards for this kind of smart plays can be 10 points out 13 in 35 seconds.

What you describe is the High school/grade school/every level shooting foul.
I thought we were discussing the NBA 15' Continuation call.
mick

How about this:

Imagine the defender suddenly changes into a stationary sculpture at the moment the offensive player starts his shooting motion.

if the shooter changes his path so that the contact with the sculpture would have been avoided, then foul on defender.

if the shooter keep his path or does not change his path enough so that he would have collided with the sculpture anyway, then foul on shooter.

Thanks.

I described the dramatic win of Rocket over Spurs by T-Mac's surreal 13 points with 35 seconds remining in the game. It is not grade school level for sure.

Thought this thread started out regarding blocking and charging.

ysong,
When we referee the Defender and see he <U>is not moving</U>, then the contact must be charged to the Offensive player, mustn't it? Then we decide whether, or not, enough contact occurred to warrant a foul call. Yes?
mick

mick,

Definitely you are right on this. I just try to explore a creative approach to judge <U> whether the defender is moving or not, </U> which happened to be what we were disscusing in the post I originally quoted.

Thought you would like it.

There was not only the appearance of the movement...there was movement. Ignore the feet. Look at the torso. There are several reference points that can be used to see that the torso is still moving laterally after the shooter jumped. If it weren't, the defender would have fallen on his side since his stance was not perpendicular to the floor....his center of gravity was have been outside his feet...a sure recipie for a fall.