OUCH!

Looks like a travel to me. The left foot was the pivot foot and he moved it twice.

I will admit I had to watch this twice to come to this conclusion.

Peace

Ah, yes. The ol' "let's switch pivot feet and dazzle the sh*t outa them" move.

Good clip, Tom. Did it get called?

Good one, Tom!

*Tweet!!*
That way!

My 11 year old coulda called that one.....

Its a travel to me. I wonder how many of us would have let it go?

Obviously 3 D1 officials let this go...you can see all 3 officials in the clip..no one called it.

technically
 

It appears to me he walks 3 different times....the obvious pivot foot switcheroo....then he picks up his pivot foot before he dribbles, the little hop...then when he ends the dribble it appears his left foot is the pivot, which he then shuffles to square up...granted at full speed I wouldn't call the last 2 either, and to tell ya the truth I am like Rut, I had to look twice at the first one...

Re: technically
 

The first one I wasn't sure of either but the hop to start his dribble sealed the deal for me.

Oh well...

Sure he traveled. But D1 guys ignore this call all the time. No surprise. C should have had the first one.

WTH are these guys looking at?

I saw 2 travels upon first viewing. The quick shuffle (second travel) is routinely let go in HS games; drives me crazy.

The D-1 guys I know are told to not micromanage travels (in other words, call the <i>really</i> obvious ones). So basically, they just stop looking for travels and only call them when it's obvious to everyone.

Z

I'm not sure I would've caught the switch of the pivot foot initially, but the shuffle afterwards seemed obvious.

Keep those videos coming!

There's an obvious switching of the pivot feet there. And the reason he switched pivot feet is because the defender went for the ball. This probably should have been called. If he switched pivot feet with no one around outside the three point line this one might have been okay. But you've got to reward the defense. You can't just let everyone travel to avoid turnovers.

But I know I've missed some calls in my games and wished I had slow motion replay. :D

:D Reminds me of the old saying: "Stevie Wonder could of called that one ref."

...The changed pivot and then the hop,
Why wouldn't the refs make him stop?

Well, at least one of those travels should have been "obvious to everyone."

It happened to all of us before. By the time we play it back in our heads, it's obvious that he travelled. Unfortunately, he's already scored by that point and you just have to run down the court and ignore the coach yelling at you.

I don't think D1 officials ignore travelling per se. But they are told that's it better to no-call a travel than to put whistle on a non-violation.

[Edited by lrpalmer3 on Apr 27th, 2005 at 10:17 PM]

That one looked pretty obvious . . .

BTW, I've noticed everyone talking about playing the videos back in slo-mo, and was wondering what sort of programs people use. I use RealPlayer and/or Windows Media Player, and can't get slow motion or frame-by-frame. Is there a good program that lets you do that, or some way to get one of those programs to slow down playback?

Those programs should work, or at least Windows Media Player will. Just hit the pause button, and you can drag the slider at the bottom that moves across as you play the film, the progress bar. You can click, hold down, and drag that back and forth as slow or as fast as you want.

Thay may work but there are better ways.

Save the video to you computer somewhere. Use WinDVD or similar to play it back. Many programs actually have true slow-motion or frame advance.

Same here, I see two travels in this play.

Yep, saw 2 travels at first glance...

Just to give this some credibility I heard this from an OVC official and on top of that I talked to a SEC observer who said this guy could easily be working in the SEC if not higher.

He said that people are not there to watch officials blow the whistle and because that they only blow travels when it causes an advantage for the offense. By the kid not blowing by the defender by switching the feet or hopping by him he did not create an advantage therefore you hold the whistle. This philosophy falls under, what I am sure all of you or most of you know as the advantage/disadvantage philosophy.

This is just what I was told on the subject, not necessarily what I believe should happen.

- "Don't kill the messenger."

That message they gave you is ridiculous.

#1- the player gained an advantage by pivoting away from a defender while travelling.
#2- you sureashell put the defense at a definite <b>disadvantage</b> by not calling the very obvious travel. You took a possession away from them by ignoring the obvious violation.
#3- the advantage/disadvantage philosophy historically is applied to contact(fouls), <b>not</b> violations.
#4- when did the NCAA become the NBA?

Somebody is making up excuses for a missed call.

JR let me first say I am a very nice person and always pretty calm. But when you pretty much call out a guy who first of all knows for sure what he is talking about and then a guy real close to John Guthrie (if you don't know, he is the supervisor of officials for..... wait for it..... the SEC. I'm sorry if he is just following what he was told and taught to do, but I don't know he might not be listening too well because he is just a D-1 official so he definitely must not be doing something right.

Like I said earlier I somewhat disagree with this philosophy but you don't just use advantage/disadvantage for fouls, you use it for violations as well. Yes, the kid walked but he did not gain an advantage by using another pivot foot or hopping.

Sure everbody says your doing an injustice to the game, but you got to think, how many people came to see you blow that whistle, besides maybe your parents (oh isn't that so sweet), nobody, so reduce the amount of whistles by not blowing it about 20 times less in a game by not calling something that obviously gave the player NO ADVANTAGE, and let the flow of the game continue.

Did you ever think that the clip was posted for a reason? And the reason maybe was that the officials completely missed the call? And maybe somebody was trying to point that out as part of the learning process?

Who gives a damn about crap like "people not coming to see you blow that whistle". That's just the easy way outa admitting that you missed a call. Why not just sack up and admit it? They missed the damn call. There's not an official in the world that can say that that hasn't happened to them. End of story. No excuses. And saying that that no advantage was involved is a complete pile of crap too. The defense sure as hell was disadvantaged. They shoulda got the ball on a turnover and they didn't.

Sorry, but I'm awful leary of people that won't admit when they miss an obvious call- whether that person happens to be your idol or not.

Btw, I'm a nice guy too. I don't believe in bullsh*tting people though.

Yeah but do you personally know the supervisor of officials for..... wait for it..... the SEC?

:rolleyes:

JR I don't know about the guys you work with but I gurantee you if officials in the SEC botch a call they are going to tell you later on that they missed it. This guy that I talked to in a private would tell me if he missed a call but when we talked about the issue of traveling no certain play was discussed he was just talking about what he was taught and I guarantee when I go to IIOC camp this summer I will be learning from the best of the best and they will teach me the same thing I am trying to tell you.

Much love. Maybe one day we will get to work together and in our pre-game we would have to decide how to apply this or not, either way we would have to be on the same page to be consistent.

SEC SEC SEC SEC SEC SEC

Now we don't have to mention the SEC again in this thread!

:p

Hate do bust your bubble Dan but yes. Enough said.

Yes what?

You like to say SEC?

Good for you!

A travel with no advantage is a 6th grader accidentally ending his dribble at halfcourt with no defensive pressure. Or (maybe) a guy getting an extra step on a wide open path to the basket on a fast break, when his closest defender is underneath the other hoop.

To say that this 4+ step fiasco, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LANE, doesn't give an unfair advantage is insane.

Yeah, sure, unless you know the supervisor of...wait for it...the SEC.

Nope, I really don't think that I'm gonna pre-game <b>NOT</b> calling travelling with anybody. Just ignore me. I'll continue to be an old fuddy-duddy and try to call violations if I see them. I'm just not good enough or smart enough to do otherwise.

Btw, make sure that you <b>don't</b> call travelling at the camp you're going to. Let us know how your philosophy turns out. Good luck.

Now who do you think you are talking to...wait for it... Mr. Big Time like that!!!????

If someone has to teach you in the future how are you telling him now? :)

I will give you a helpful hint. If coach Guthrie is watching your game and a play like this happens call travel.

Like JR said, this play was made into a clip for a reason and that reason wasn't to tell us to pass on this call or to say this was a good no-call.

And I bet you we'll be seeing this clip next October.

Like JR said, this play was made into a clip for a reason and that reason wasn't to tell us to pass on this call or to say this was a good no-call. [/B][/QUOTE]And JR thanks you for posting these clips, Tom. I've been e-mailing them to all my guys. We'll be discussing them at out monthly meeting tomorrow night. They are a great learning aid, especially for the newer guys(and me too).

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 10th, 2005 at 09:41 PM]

I know all you guys disagree with this, but I am really wanting to understand why you can't accept this advantage disadvantage philosophy. Yes the kid travels and by all means it should be a whistle, but I say this again, why blow it dead when

#1 The fans and the coach didn't freak out
#2 The kid didn't beat the opponent to the hole thereby not creating an advantage.

This is just like a kid palming the ball. A good official is not going to call him for a palming violation unless he creates an advantage for himself by freezing the player, etc.

If a player after picking up his dribble just outside the paint shuffles his feet just a little bit without gaining a better position from doing so do you blow the whistle?

In all these cases sure you blow the whistle according to the rule book, but what is the spirit and intent of the rule. That is what all officials should base their decisions on.

Did the player try to abuse or take advantage of the rule? If so then blow the whistle. If not, play on.

So once again I ask just for arguments sake, why blow the whistle? Nothing but dead time comes from blowing it dead. What good thing comes from dead ball time? Nothing, but jawing which could lead into a fight.

Why waste time explaining it to you? Obviously you won't believe any of us anyway. You already answered your own question above.

Handle it your way- you're obviously -- wait for this-- smarter, better and more experienced than any of us anyway. We'll try and muddle along anyway though.

Great philosophy. Don't call anything and you'll never have any dead time, arguments, etc. Your games must be a helluva little quicker too.

Lah me.

refTN, it seems odd to me that you would take this stance with a group of guys who have probably been officiating as long as you have been alive and who are at the level you are trying to get to. It is like you are trying to talk down with an attitude of "I know I'm right, this is common sense." Since you don't seem to understand I will talk to you in your language.

The commisioner (ex now) of the ACC thought something about this play warranted putting it one the ACC website. This is what he titled the clip: "Travel Violation -This violation must be called by either the Trail or Center officials."

Also, I will call Zack Zarba today (yes I have his number), get his email address and send him the clip so he can say what he thinks about someone from his former conference saying something like this shouldn't be called. Maybe that will help YOU understand since he is one of your idols. :D

Hey, guys, take it easy on refTN, he has a point.

So when the coach from the opposing team grabs him by the neck, takes his whistle (which he isn't using anyway), and shoves it in a dark place, he'll pass on the obvious tech, too, because he was told to in the ... WAIT FOR IT ... SEC!!

refTN, get some years under your belt before you talk about philosophy of officiating. If you haven't done a grammar school championship game yet (which I doubt you have), you haven't done anything, let alone what you are about to face this summer. You should be an open book at this point learning as much as you can and working to get a philosophy before spouting someone else's words which apparently you have mangled beyond recognition.

Tomegun, stop yackin' and post some more vids! ;)

I have his email address. Wanna trade? :)

<font size = -2>(Just kidding, btw. I'm not sharing anybody's personal info.)</font>

You guys are right, I am trying to learn as much as I can and like I said in my very first post I don't totally agree with this, it is a walk plain and simple and I have had calls like this before and called it a walk everytime, I was just putting this in there to see how you guys react and see what you guys really thought about it.

I was learning from every word you guys said, I used this as a learning tool to see what the majority thought and kept it going just to see if more would get involved in the topic and agree with this no call.

I know most guys on here are some type of college officials and I apologize for getting you all hyped up and upset about the topic but I had to see how you guys truly felt about the call, and see if you could at all see it the other way.

I hope there are no hard feelings. I gurantee you if that situation ever happens to me you will see me call a walk.

Thanks for the insight. I apologize again.

How about the other clips?
 

I had....

Hold Clip ====> Jump Ball
Block or Charge Clip =====> Player Control
Rebounding ======> Push on GA player
Double Foul ======> Push on GT - I thought the push on GT should have been called, but if they passed on that I don't see a double foul here. The GT player did nothing while he was on the ground. It looked like the Duke player thought he was in a wrestling match.

Anyone disagree with these calls?

Question on the traveling call
 

When both feet are on the ground when a player receives the ball, what determines the pivot foot? Doesn't the player have to pick up on foot completely off the floor? Or does simply lifting the heal and balancing on the toes of one foot make the other foot the pivot?

I know the above does not apply in this case, but the video started me thinking. When I first saw it I thought both feet where on the floor and I couldn't tell if he ever lifted the right foot completely. After looking at it several times it seems to me that the right foot touched down after the left, making the left the pivot.

Thanks!
Randall

Re: How about the other clips?
 

There are threads dedicated to each video clip. Check them out.

Thanks, I didnt know
 

I must have overlooked them. I'll check them out.

Thanks!

I hope you don't beleive that. Thre may be some college officials here...there may even be several. But, it is far from most.

Also, there are many of HS officials that are better than the small time college officials and even some big time college officials but have careers that don't permit them to take off the time required for college schedules. There is no way I could make the travel time for any weekday game around here. I don't get off work until 5-6pm or later. No chance of driving 1-5 hours to a game. There are a few people I know that work college that aren't great but have no limits on their schedule.

There are others that post here that are quite happy to embellish their ability and magnatude of games they get.

[Edited by Camron Rust on May 13th, 2005 at 05:47 PM]

You're right Camron. I should have said the guys that I was debating with such as Jurassic, and Dan and tomegun. I mean I assume they are in college since one has an NBA officials phone number, and the others post here so much and have so much incite on every topic.

What am I? Chopped liver? I got 5700 posts. I got an NBA ref's email address. I incite lots of topics!!

My bad Chuck did not mean to leave anyone out. DANG you do have a lot of posts. How old are you? Just playin

I'm older than I once was, but younger than I'll be. That's not unusual.

And don't forget, as time goes on, the percentage difference between those younger, and you, decreases. So that means they get closer to being old faster than you.

(I forgot, did I take my meds this morning?)

No it isn't strange, after changes upon changes, we are more or less the same

After changes we are more or less the same.........

:)

li la li...